How do you feel about Universalists? (Non-Asatruar welcome)

[Zephyr]

I realized how outdated the post was a couple of hours after I posted to it, so I'm sure you've learned a lot since then. You can learn a lot in nine months.

Thanks for the update! Although, I'm wondering what you mean by "slightly more literal approach." How do you view them now? What changed your mind?

I figure the gods might as well exist. I mean, if I'm wrong it hurts me none and the lessons found in their tales are still valid, but I really don't like to half-*** things. If they were good enough for my old folks, they're good enough for me Damnit!

 

[Ciarin]

I guess I'll answer even though this thread is pretty old.

I don't mind universalists as long as they don't get too wishy-washy. As long as they keep it in the realm of heathenry and not wicca-tru I'm ok with it.

 

[Worshipper]

I tend to be with you, Zephyr. Or at least with where you were last year and the year before.

I think it's always kind of odd to see a wholly non-Germanic Asatruar. A partially Germanic Asatruar doesn't especially strike me as odd — I just figure they identify more with their Germanic side. But one or two odd fellows in a group isn't all that bad. If an Italian guy really feels the call of the Æsir, who am I to get in their way?

What I don't understand is Asatru groups that go out of their way to universalize the faith. Why not encourage people to worship their own folk's gods and follow the ways of their own people?

Anyway, to really universalize Asatru, you'd have to alter its precepts the same way Christianity alters Judaism or Buddhism alters Hinduism. Maybe develop a wyrd-based philosophy with an attendant ethical system or something. You can't just set up an affirmative-action hof and expect a universal faith.

That's my thoughts on it.

 

[painted wolf]

I personally find the whole concept to be a load of sh...ugar. Asatru is based too much on ancestry to have the non-folkish among us. I see someone without our ancestry "converting" to Asatru as silly as a European trying to become a Sioux.

Hey, First Nations people often adopted Europeans and Africans into their nations with no worries.
Many a celebrated warrior had red or blond hair.
A great number of Cherokee are African in decent.
What you needed was a respect for the traditions and a willingness to 'walk the talk'. (as far as many elders I've talked with are concerned that's all you need today as well. Pedigree isn't an issue outside of Government charts.)

While I disapprove greatly of universalist asatru or wiccatru or whatever, I'm not going to stop someone from believing what they like. It's unlikely that I will consider them one of my folk, but different strokes eh?

Where First Nations people get upset is when people co-opt rituals and charge money for them... or make rituals up and claim that they are 'native american'....
Or when someone tries to pass themselves off as a member of a nation they are not. (which is why I am always careful to mention that I am not a 'card carrying' Cherokee and can only pass on what I have learned in my short time of learning.)

So I can sympathize with your stance.

However, I don't know much about your faith so can I ask... What would stop someone from learning your ways to celebrate their ancestors as well as your own? If that is the path that truly calls to them? (many cultures have lost their ancestral connections leaving those who wish to do so with few options.)

wa:do

 

[greenzspy]

painted wolf.
with all do respect to zephyr and worshipper (ive read someof your posts and you 2 look very articulate)

before you read his(their) answer you should know that to most asatruars this stuff dosent matter.* in fact The topics of 'racial purity' and 'blood lines'
(which for some people are synonymous with this topic) are not only meaningless in respect to historically based heathenry since they are completely modern, pseudo-political constructs, but are also a demonstration of an inabilty to discern between 'culture' and 'skin color' which borders on stupidity and ignorance.

further more Both topics fly in the face of those of us who may not be 'racially/blood pure' and/ or who may have children who are not racially pure which includes most Americans and many Europeans. How an individual chooses to view their bloodline is a personal opinion, and personal opinions are of little value in historacal based asatru.


*partially quoted and from a man i know as bil (eddited by my self to fit this topic)

 

[Tyr]

Weelll long time no posty. Here is my 2 cents this is more of a family thing not something you can just start believing in or accepting because you like it, that is how it is for me personally anyway.

 

[Ukonkivi]

I can say that non-Germanic people can easily be Ásatrú.
I think that extreme racialism in the matter is more in line with Odalism thinking than Ásatrú.
People can honor ancestors other than their own, as well as honoring their own ancestors.
There's a such thing as "honoring the spirits of the land" and such.

There's also the idea of "honoring the spirits that call to you". In one is called to Germanic spiritual matters, it shouldn't be a big deal.

Though maybe I'm underestimating the amount of Romantic Nationalism in it.
You can be an eclectic Pagan and incorporate Norse Animist, Polytheist Paganism, so I don't see why not Ásatrú as well.

 

[Smoke]

I personally find the whole concept to be a load of sh...ugar. Asatru is based too much on ancestry to have the non-folkish among us. I see someone without our ancestry "converting" to Asatru as silly as a European trying to become a Sioux.

What about somebody like me who has a mixed heritage? Mostly Germanic and Celtic, with a dash of Slav and a dash of Native American? If I practiced Asatru, would you consider me a "real" heathen?

Edit: I see you've pretty much answered this question; I didn't realize how old the thread was.

 

[Smoke]

Maybe it's because I know next to nothing about Asatru, but that strikes me as kinda cold. You paralleled a European trying to become a Sioux, well, I'm of entirely European blood (different ethnicities but still all European) but I love Native American beliefs, ways of life etc. I had this longing to learn everything I could and maybe become a part of the ways, but I never tried because of my heritage. And I think that it's because of attitudes like this that stopped me from trying.

I used to date a Native American who practiced Lakota religion but belong to an Eastern Woodlands people. He said that he adopted Lakota practices because his own heritage was irretrievably lost. I think for most Native peoples it's your attitude that counts. "We're going to chant the Lotus Sutra and then have a sweat lodge" doesn't fly, but most Native people are kind and respectful to people who approach their traditions with respect and a careful sense of context.

 

[Ukonkivi]

The Greco-Roman tales tell that both groups respected the gods of other groups.
And Roman lore borrowed heavily from Greek lore.

When the persecuted Portuguese Christians lived in Japan, they practiced Shinto.
An Animist, Polytheist religion parallel to Germanic Heathenism.

Having a Heritage does not mean you refuse respect for the ancestor spirits of others.
As a mostly Anglo-Celtic ethnic person, I am an not especially Germanic of a person, but my peoples, at least the Anglo-Saxon side, did originate from Germanic peoples, and they did often worship Wotan.
As such a person, I can at the least not discern away another Northern Descent person from sharing in the praises of my ancestors.

To put in a more Microcosm example, an interesting tale of "breaking the gates" of Shinto spiritual matters exists in Higurashi no Naku Koro ni. This will be hard to break spoilers. But when newcomers enter the land of Hinamizawa, a strange karma happens and many lives of suffering for that person can occur, due to the actions of generations ago Hinamizawa. And at first, the newcomer, the main character of the story does suffer from the sins of Hinamizawa's past, but eventually not only becomes accepted by the restless spirits, but eventually becomes it's savior. And he was loved by it's chief kami all along.

Even in Japan, the idea of Shinto does not go nationwide. It is a collective of various unique spiritual matters. A person of Tokyo is naturally an outsider of the heritage of Sapporo spirits for the most part. The person may have not so much as a single ancestor from Sapporo. But it is still natural to ancestor worship when in Sapporo.
You are respecting the spirits of the area.

When around Ise Jinja, respect Amaterasu. It doesn't matter where you're from.

Furthermore, I subscribe to the pro-Gaia ideas found in many indigenous religions.
In Shinto it indeed states that all are connected.

I cannot truly agree with the Odalist and Germanic Racialist Tribalist viewpoints on spirituality of the OP.
However, to whatever degree, I think it may be more nature for a Northerner to feel attached to Northern spirits.

Perhaps even though there are connections throughout all, there are still degrees of Separation. Pantheism is all about clumps, after all. All is not the same part of God, but like different organs to a major body. And things are connected in different ways.

My spiritual sense tells me that divisions such as Germanic, Uralic, Celtic, and so forth, are not the only matters that divide and bring spirits together. My feel of nature tells me that, that the divisions and connects that exist, are also binded flora and fauna. Northern Spirits are connected to Norther Spirits. Cold climate spirits are connected to cold climate spirits. Warm climate spirits are connect to cold climate spirits. Jungle spirits are connected to jungle spirits. Desert spirits are connected to desert spirits. Snowland spirits are connected to snowland spirits. Temperate Rainforest Spirits are connected to Temperate Rainforest spirits.

I refuse to believe that the spirits of say, Sweden, are not so much as even slightly connect to that of those in Finland. And that the spirits of Uralic Finland have not intermingled with those of Slavic Russia, when since ancient times, both have lived in Russia.

I don't think one can so simply say that Germanic is Germanic and Slavic is Slavic and never between shall meet. It is a deeply perplexing matter where the bloodveins of the spirit world meet.
One that it takes a true sage to truly understand in macrocosm.

 

[DarkWisdom]

I don't think Asatru just has to be based on ancestory, it might just be that the wisdom of the gods resonates with them. They just like the philosophy and moral system.

 

[Tyr]

Racism is no part of this its simply the fact of this is not something you can just come into like christianity, Heritage and ancestry is a major part of asatru. This should not be attributed to racism or racists in anyway they have fouled it.

 

[Ukonkivi]

And a Celtic person cannot put forth and perpetuate the Norse Heritage?
Even in Tribalism there have been tribes who partook in the traditions of other tribes.

Anglo-Celtic peoples would not exist without intense inter-tribal relations.
The word "heritage" is being thrown around an awful lot without much further explanation.

Do I, a person of Anglo-Celtic descent not have enough Germanic heritage to worship Freya?!

May we separate Norse worship from Ásatrú? What all are the tenants of Ásatrú that directly deny non-Germanic people from having any involvement. What about the Finnish Asatruar?

I am not going to simply accept a word like "heritage" on the matter without some heavy explanation.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

I may have a semi-universalist view (And yes, I know how old this thread is, just thought I'd throw in my two cents.) Two me, while I am mostly folkish, I would include the Celts, Uralic peoples, and even some of the Slavic people. The Gods of most of Europe are very similar, mainly between Germanic and Celtic people. Two me, Celts and Germans are almost the same, and in my eyes they have the same blood. The Celts and Gauls were said to have crossed the Rhine and spread into Western Europe, while the Germans stayed, so to me, they are Germans as well. Also, Russia was once ruled by the Vikings, and many Vikings assimilated with the Slavs, so many Slavic people have Nordic ancestry. The same goes for the Uralic people, as Sweden controlled Finland for a long time. I am one quarter Italian. The rest of me is all German and Celtic. I think nowadays it's very hard to find people of pure Germanic ancestry, so I don't sweat it too much. The only think that would strike me as odd would be an African, Asian, or someone from the Middle East "converting" to Asatru. And like Zephyr, I wouldn't consider them Kin, but I wouldn't have a huge problem with them. To me it would just seem odd.

*Edit:

The way I look at it, if your Ancestors had Heathen Blood(Germanic, Celtic, Uralic, Slavic), it would not strike me as odd if you took up Asatru. When you look at it, Germanic Paganism is a blanket term, because there is no dogma or any set of "true" beliefs. Each tribe and family had different beliefs. They all had things in common, but they differed, much like the Celtic and Slavic Gods and beliefs differ from the Germanic. So I think that all Heathens should join together under Heathenism, and try to bring it back, rather than fight between each other on the differences between their beliefs. We can all have separate beliefs and still be Kin. I don't think that my Gods would have a problem accepting another Heathen of any sort. Slavs, Celts, and Germans are so similar in my view that I don't think they should be considered that different, so much as to exclude them from my "folkish" view. After all, Germanic peoples have spread all over the world. England, North America, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Russia, Finland, Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, etc.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I just have a question, since I'm not Asatru and noticed the OP's post. Why is it important rather or not a person is European to worship the Aesir? I'm not Egyptian and I worship my gods, and they don't seem to mind. Will the Norse gods only accept the worship of those of European stock?

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

I just have a question, since I'm not Asatru and noticed the OP's post. Why is it important rather or not a person is European to worship the Aesir? I'm not Egyptian and I worship my gods, and they don't seem to mind. Will the Norse gods only accept the worship of those of European stock?

Well Asatru itself is an ancestral religion. A lot of it has to do with honouring your ancestors. So if none of your ancestors were Germanic, why should you worship Germanic Gods? Who would you then be honouring? By being an Asatruar with Germanic heritage, you are honouring your ancestors by continuing their traditions and beliefs, because it is a Germanic religion. Does that makes sense? I personally don't think that the Gods wouldn't accept a person of non-Germanic descent, it's just that is almost defeats the purpose of Asatru. It's not only a religion, but an outlook on life, and a way you live your life.

 

[Revasser]

I just have a question, since I'm not Asatru and noticed the OP's post. Why is it important rather or not a person is European to worship the Aesir? I'm not Egyptian and I worship my gods, and they don't seem to mind. Will the Norse gods only accept the worship of those of European stock?

To my mind, the question is not about the gods - what they do and whom they do or do not accept is their own business and they are welcome to it - so much as it is about heathenry as a community and modern religion.

I would agree with Klaufi that whilst a person of non-Northern European descent could practice heathenry, they would probably be missing the heart of it. It would indeed very nearly defeat the purpose. There are circumstances where such would not be the case, but they are exceptional. It is an ancestral religion of a particular people - a folkway.

Please understand that most "folkish" heathens, at least that I have interacted with or observed, are not saying "you aren't Germanic enough so you can't do this and oh, by the way, the Aesir tell you to bugger off." What they are asking is "Do your people not have their own ways?"

The most appropriate comparison that I have had first hand experience with is Chinese folk religion. It is effectively an ethnic tradition and is largely meaningless (and nigh impossible to understand) outside of its host culture. An outsider can honour their traditions when it is called for - such as during a festival or while visiting the home of a practitioner - but they can never truly be immersed in it. Those who try are typically looked on with bemusement. They are - and I quote - "just playing" and will inevitably "go back to their own type."

The comparison is not 1:1 because we are putting a very young, modern reclamation in what has become a very heterogenous society next to a continuous tradition in a culturally homogenous setting, but I think it is mostly appropriate. Perhaps if you live in North America, it could be somewhat compared to outsiders wishing to be part of Native American tribal traditions.

Unfortunately the conversation on this topic is too-often coloured by two major factors.

The first is that we are "white people" living in a society where "white people" making comments or holding opinions that even hint at an ethnic component are often immediately considered to be racists or white supremacists or otherwise unsavoury characters. Once this happens, any chance of a serious discussion on the topic is out the window. This isn't helped by the fact that there are white supremacists who abuse heathenry to justify their hateful politics, which damages the rest of us no matter how much we may detest them and speak out against them.

The second is that heathenry/Asatru is far more often associated with the likes of Wicca and generalist neo-paganism than it is with the likes of Shinto or Shenism. Indeed, many heathens came to it via neo-pagan paths (though many also did not). Therefore there is this expectation that heathenry should have the same eclectic, syncretic, universalist attitudes that tend to be found within those paths, rather than the tighter focus of other ethnic traditions. It is important to remember that heathenry/Asatru is not (and no offence to Wiccans) "Wiccatru" and that heathens/Asatruar are not simply "Norse-only" neo-pagans and should not be expected to act or believe in the same way or share all their values.

It is my understanding that even if a person was not of Northern European descent, if they demonstrated that were truly serious about wanting to be part of heathenry, earnestly desired to be immersed in the culture and customs and were prepared to put in the work required (and there would be a fair amount of it), they would be accepted by most reasonable circles of heathens.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

To my mind, the question is not about the gods - what they do and whom they do or do not accept is their own business and they are welcome to it - so much as it is about heathenry as a community and modern religion.

I would agree with Klaufi that whilst a person of non-Northern European descent could practice heathenry, they would probably be missing the heart of it. It would indeed very nearly defeat the purpose. There are circumstances where such would not be the case, but they are exceptional. It is an ancestral religion of a particular people - a folkway.

Please understand that most "folkish" heathens, at least that I have interacted with or observed, are not saying "you aren't Germanic enough so you can't do this and oh, by the way, the Aesir tell you to bugger off." What they are asking is "Do your people not have their own ways?"

The most appropriate comparison that I have had first hand experience with is Chinese folk religion. It is effectively an ethnic tradition and is largely meaningless (and nigh impossible to understand) outside of its host culture. An outsider can honour their traditions when it is called for - such as during a festival or while visiting the home of a practitioner - but they can never truly be immersed in it. Those who try are typically looked on with bemusement. They are - and I quote - "just playing" and will inevitably "go back to their own type."

The comparison is not 1:1 because we are putting a very young, modern reclamation in what has become a very heterogenous society next to a continuous tradition in a culturally homogenous setting, but I think it is mostly appropriate. Perhaps if you live in North America, it could be somewhat compared to outsiders wishing to be part of Native American tribal traditions.

Unfortunately the conversation on this topic is too-often coloured by two major factors.

The first is that we are "white people" living in a society where "white people" making comments or holding opinions that even hint at an ethnic component are often immediately considered to be racists or white supremacists or otherwise unsavoury characters. Once this happens, any chance of a serious discussion on the topic is out the window. This isn't helped by the fact that there are white supremacists who abuse heathenry to justify their hateful politics, which damages the rest of us no matter how much we may detest them and speak out against them.

The second is that heathenry/Asatru is far more often associated with the likes of Wicca and generalist neo-paganism than it is with the likes of Shinto or Shenism. Indeed, many heathens came to it via neo-pagan paths (though many also did not). Therefore there is this expectation that heathenry should have the same eclectic, syncretic, universalist attitudes that tend to be found within those paths, rather than the tighter focus of other ethnic traditions. It is important to remember that heathenry/Asatru is not (and no offence to Wiccans) "Wiccatru" and that heathens/Asatruar are not simply "Norse-only" neo-pagans and should not be expected to act or believe in the same way or share all their values.

It is my understanding that even if a person was not of Northern European descent, if they demonstrated that were truly serious about wanting to be part of heathenry, earnestly desired to be immersed in the culture and customs and were prepared to put in the work required (and there would be a fair amount of it), they would be accepted by most reasonable circles of heathens.

Couldn't have ever said it better myself.

 

[WayFarer]

I believe that part of the argument against a universalist approach to the Germanic (Norse) gods is the Germanic approach to understanding the soul. The Germanic approach to the soul splits it up into several pieces. One of these pieces is a piece is inherited. In this manner you are connected to your ancestors and the "gods of your fathers" so to speak. This can be viewed as a version of spiritual instinct. A person who do not have any ancestors who would have approached the gods from a "northern" perspective would not do so with a level of intuitive ease, but it would not be impossible to do so, just (perhaps) less satisfying. With that in mind there is a line of thought that approaches the level of dissatisfaction by degrees. The further away your ancestral line(s) are from that line of thinking (even going back as far as proto-indo-european) the less satisfied you are likely to become.

 

[EyeofOdin]

There are many ancestral paths that only accept people who are ethnically descended from a particular race, whether it be Native American Spirituality, Shinto Spirituality, Indigenous African Spirituality etc. The real problem is the fact that white people have decided to do this too. Unfortunately it attracts some people with a "racialist" agenda.

Personally I see both sides of the argument. I believe that everybody has an Indigenous culture that they can go back to and they can see. It's apart of who you are. How you feel doesn't change the fact that you're not Native American or Hindu and you're simply West African or Italian.

At the same time, when we look back to how our ancestors related to other cultures and how they interacted with gods outside of their ancestry, whenever they would go into a new land and merchants and travelers would go into a new inn, they would pay tribute to the native gods of *that* land, not their homeland. So a Roman traveling to Egypt wouldn't give an offering to Venus, instead he would pay tribute to Hathor.

The funny thing is that if we want to be more and more "folkish", it turns out to be more folkish it's okay to be somewhat universalist, as most of our ancestors had a polytheistic, universalist belief system.

When Greek or Roman historians would go into Egypt, Germany or Gaul, they wouldn't come back and talk about the myths and lore about Isis, Thor or Cernunnos. They said that they found a people who had different stories about Juno, Jupiter and Mercury. They believed that when another culture talked about their gods, they were really talking about the same using their culture, language and beliefs to interpret them as best they could.