how do you feel when threatened with Hell?

[Rachel Rugelach]

Why, you can't get out of the conversation?

Online, of course, you can easily just choose not to respond.

But in the offline, workaday world, especially when you're serving the public, especially when you work in a public library where sometimes certain books get challenged (and you don't remove books from the library's collection on demand), those conversations with certain people about certain books sometimes conclude with you being informed that you're "going to hell." And that's when I say in my head the things I'd really like to say out loud to certain members of the public.

 

[Ajax]

My original question to you was..."Whether the future is hidden from us is irrelevant. The question is that, if there is an omniscient God who knows all our future, can we do something different from what God knows and sees?"

To which you replied...

Of course we can't from G-d's perspective .. it has "already happened", as far as G-d is concerned.
..but for us, it hasn't.

So you have agreed that we can't do something different from what God knows and sees. Thank you! That covers me fully.
As such, your last post is totally irrelevant to my question and if I may say, a cheap justification.
In any case, God is supposed to know all our actions before we make them, so gone is your free will, because God can not change what he already knew and still knows, otherwise he wouldn't be omniscient. You think you have a free will, if you believe in any Abrahamic religion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

My original question to you was..."Whether the future is hidden from us is irrelevant. The question is that, if there is an omniscient God who knows all our future, can we do something different from what God knows and sees?"

To which you replied...

So you have agreed that we can't do something different from what God knows and sees. Thank you! That covers me fully.

I know .. it's difficult to see .. many people are confused by this.

That's right .. we can't do something different than G-d sees .. but what FIXES what G-d sees?

As such, your last post is totally irrelevant to my question and if I may say, a cheap justification..

..perhaps you are not scientifically minded .. oh, well .. never mind.

In any case, God is supposed to know all our actions before we make them..

There IS no "before we make them" from G-d's perspective.

..so gone is your free will, because God can not change what he already knew and still knows..

"knew" and "knows" is only from our perspective .. you are viewing "time" as absolute.
It isn't !

Example
-------------
The fact that an agent might know what we will do in one second's time, does NOT change the fact that it is us that makes the decision to do it.
It is HOW the agent knows i.e. He sees us doing it, while we perceive we haven't done it yet

It all rests on the perception of time .. the perception of "it hasn't happened yet" seems absolute to us.
We perceive time as "tick-tock", and feel that it can't be violated.

G-d created the space-time continuum .. G-d is the ultimate Time-Lord!

Have you never had a distinct feeling of deja-vous?

 

[Muffled]

Yes .. "in my opinion" nobody wants to be in mental or physical pain.

I believe I have heard of masochism. Although I can't say that I would invite the devil to test me, I did find it interesting, sort of like his ploys with Jesus in the dessert only even more subtle.

 

[Muffled]

I don't know... I've met a few gluttons for punishment.

I believe addicts keep doing things they know will harm them but then that is how addiction works.

 

[Muffled]

My original question to you was..."Whether the future is hidden from us is irrelevant. The question is that, if there is an omniscient God who knows all our future, can we do something different from what God knows and sees?"

To which you replied...

So you have agreed that we can't do something different from what God knows and sees. Thank you! That covers me fully.
As such, your last post is totally irrelevant to my question and if I may say, a cheap justification.
In any case, God is supposed to know all our actions before we make them, so gone is your free will, because God can not change what he already knew and still knows, otherwise he wouldn't be omniscient. You think you have a free will, if you believe in any Abrahamic religion.

I believe what we choose is already known but our choices are free will.

 

[Ajax]

I am scientifically minded, but the assumption that He is not part of the space-time, applies to his omniscience only, in that this is how He can have foreknowledge of all future events, including human choices and actions, in advance and as some theologians say from the beginning of the world. Plus he is considered immutable.
I presume you don't want to admit that we either do not have free will, or God is not omniscient (which is the most probable).

 

[dfnj]

I am scientifically minded, but the assumption that He is not part of the space-time, applies to his omniscience only, in that this is how He can have foreknowledge of all future events, including human choices and actions, in advance and as some theologians say from the beginning of the world. Plus he is considered immutable.
I presume you don't want to admit that we either do not have free will, or God is not omniscient (which is the most probable).

I think it's both. In the multiverse, every possible quantum state is realized. So in the entire multiverse you have free-will. But in the Universe we find ourselves in, there's hard determinism by the laws of physics and everything we say and do is predetermined. So God, is just a word that represents everything that can possibly be in every possible dimension along with every possible quantum state realized. In one universe you marry Susan. And in another universe you marry Jane.

To put in simple terms, I think our omnipotent God knew exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with a naked woman prancing about!!

 

[Ajax]

I believe what we choose is already known but our choices are free will.

Hey.. that's a little unfair... sounds like God can recognize all the cards in a pack, without turning them over..
If he knows what we will do, well before we decide what to do, how can we choose something different from what He knows?

 

[dfnj]

How do you feel when people threaten you with Hell?

For me it brings about an enormous sense of superiority

I think it's supposed to scare me

It really doesn't

I believe when you die, four possible things happen. First, you turn and face the light, and get absorbed into God's consciousness, time stops, you no longer experience your own ego, and you are in a perpetual state of everlasting eternal bliss.

Second, you turn half-way around from the tunnel and the light. At which point, you are immediately given omnipotent powers. Omnipotent powers meaning everything you imagine to be real instantly becomes reality. With your new found omnipotent powers, whatever it is that was preventing you from going into the light is exercised by your own imagination. Once you've experienced everything you need to experience a million times over, you become bored and have nothing left to imagine by the limitations of your own ego. At that exact moment, the tunnel and the light appears except this time there's nothing holding you back. You turn to face the light and get absorbed into the mind of God and experience eternal heavenly bliss.

And third, the most common choice, out of fear you turn completely away from the light. At this point, you experience what is described in the Tibetan book of the Dead. You start going down a path and start facing demons of your own creation. The demons you face are whatever it is you fear most. In other words, the demons are worst possible things you can experience. After each experience with each demon you have the opportunity to turn back, face God, and go into the light. But if you still have one iota of fear, you continue down the path of being tortures by demons of your own creation. At the end of the path, and there are no demons left, you have one more chance. And if you still have fear, then you experience reincarnation by being born in a baby somewhere in a hospital in New Jersey. As you grow up in New Jersey, you will have plenty of opportunities to develop new fears and continue working on the ones that were holding you back from experiencing the absolute perfection that is God. The third choice is what people commonly call as Hell.

Or, the 4th possibility, or what atheist claim, your consciousness just stops so you will be completely unaware of your own non-existence. I once heard a comedian say the people who think they are going to heaven cease to exist, and the people who think they are going to cease to exist, end up experiencing heaven.

 

[Ajax]

I think it's both. In the multiverse, every possible quantum state is realized. So...

Well, lets leave out the quantum theory and the hypothetical multiverse, otherwise we will never finish this debate..

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I feel sad when people's empathy and compassion are so damaged they think hell could possibly represent an omnibenevolent just system. I also feel distrust towards those people because of said damaged compassion and empathy, and won't keep them around me overlong.

I don't feel threatened though, despite their intent. Threatening people with things they don't believe in seldom has the impact the threatener wants.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I presume you don't want to admit that we either do not have free will, or God is not omniscient (which is the most probable).

It is not a matter of "admitting" .. it is YOUR belief that they are incompatible.

I see that they are INDEED compatible. A fixed future is no different from the past, in
as much as it will be "a series of events".
We can acknowledge that the series of events we call the past can be fixed by our actions,
but we have difficulty in understanding how the future can be fixed in the same way IF IT IS KNOWN.

The answer lies in the mechnism of HOW it is known .. one has to accept that what we consider
"hasn't happened yet", is merely a perception.
A very convincing perception, maybe .. but no more than that.

Another way of thinking about it, is if we are not actually making decisions, then what/who is???

 

[Ajax]

It is not a matter of "admitting" .. it is YOUR belief that they are incompatible.,,,,,,,,,

I 'm afraid you are repeating irrelevant replies. If, and I repeat if, there is a God who is omniscient and has foreknowledge of the past, present and future simultaneously, then of course for such a God it would be "a series of events" and then the "hasn't happened yet" would be a perception from our part. But this does not change the fact that a such God will know what your specific choices and actions would be and I'm afraid you can't do otherwise. Your God should know with every detail whether you will decide to become a martyr, or not, otherwise he is not omniscient.
Anyway thanks for the discussion, it has become somehow boring... as I have seen some previous message from you to others which I find then contradictory.

 

[Fool]

How do you feel when people threaten you with Hell?

For me it brings about an enormous sense of superiority

I think it's supposed to scare me

It really doesn't

I feel that i'm already present in that dualistic scenario. the bible hints of satan being heaven and god in hades, so I'm already in thatt persons hell, not some limbo. the heat is on to save me from self and not to help me understand how I am the power of god self-apparent, self-evident.

save me from those who intentions are paved with good intentions to save me from other as self's hell.

ACK!!!

 

[YoursTrue]

Online, of course, you can easily just choose not to respond.

But in the offline, workaday world, especially when you're serving the public, especially when you work in a public library where sometimes certain books get challenged (and you don't remove books from the library's collection on demand), those conversations with certain people about certain books sometimes conclude with you being informed that you're "going to hell." And that's when I say in my head the things I'd really like to say out loud to certain members of the public.

Very good, you're doing the moderate thing (I think so anyway). Although -- if it were ME -- I'd probably say something like, I like reading the Bible and if you'd like to go over it with me I'd be happy to do so. I see no reason that it says people will suffer in hell as proposed by some. (Then we'd have to go over the Hebrew and Greek words, takes time as well as the scriptures if they're willing.) And if they combat that by quoting a scripture, I might say, I understand how you feel, perhaps we can discuss this another time.
But I commend you for being nonargumentative in that situation. I don't always have the greatest responses.

 

[TLK Valentine]

How do you feel when people threaten you with Hell?

For me it brings about an enormous sense of superiority

I think it's supposed to scare me

It really doesn't

I haven't been threatened with Hell in a long time... I miss it; it's quaint.

 

[Eddi]

I haven't been threatened with Hell in a long time... I miss it; it's quaint.

Especially when they say they are worried for you and will be sad to not be in Heaven with you..........

So your God would horribly torture your friends for all eternity?????

Lovely!

 

[JustGeorge]

Especially when they say they are worried for you and will be sad to not be in Heaven with you..........

So your God would horribly torture your friends for all eternity?????

Lovely!

That must be tormenting, really...

I assume people in that position can't(typically) just turn off their belief in a God that acts like that...

I would think it very uncomfortable to truly believe in an entity that wanted to harm those they hold dear.

 

[YoursTrue]

That must be tormenting, really...

I assume people in that position can't(typically) just turn off their belief in a God that acts like that...

I would think it very uncomfortable to truly believe in an entity that wanted to harm those they hold dear.

what do you think happens to a person when he dies?