how do you feel when threatened with Hell?

[muhammad_isa]

..Why did your god create a devil, or "satan" that he knew would thwart his plans? Or did he secretly somehow want the devil to get his way sometimes?

G-d created angels, and the universe, and saw that it was "good".
The angels are subservient to G-d, and incapable of disobedience.

G-d then created Jinn (made of fire), and mankind (made of material).
They ARE capable of disobedience.
"satan" is the original rebel/deceiver, but there are many devils amongst us all.

..so it is a question of why did G-d create beings with free-will, that are capable of evil
i.e. disobeying G-d

The answer lies in the fact that mankind/jinn have the responsibility for their own destiny.
In the Lord of the Rings (Tolkien), we see a struggle between good and evil - gollum/gandalf

 

[Ajax]

G-d created angels, and the universe, and saw that it was "good".
The angels are subservient to G-d, and incapable of disobedience.

Your ideas are totally contradictory to the Bible. God is supposedly omniscient, and that includes being able to see the past, present and future.
Satan was also supposedly a fallen angel or jinn who has rebelled against God. So God knew this would happen but nevertheless allows him temporary power over the fallen world and a lot of demons who were also angels. That is why the Lord's prayer ends with "and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."
King James Bible Isaiah 45:7 " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Also we do not have the responsibility of our own destiny, if God is omniscient and knows the future..

 

[joelr]

How do you feel when people threaten you with Hell?

For me it brings about an enormous sense of superiority

I think it's supposed to scare me

It really doesn't

Amazed that modern people don't know it's a myth like any other underworld and rose to the publics awareness in the Middle Ages, was visually influenced by Dante and originated with Persian beliefs, as did messianic and apocalyptic expectation.


The Iranian Impact on Judaism


excerpted from N. F. Gier, Theology Bluebook, Chapter 12


It was not so much monotheism that the exilic Jews learned from the Persians as it was universalism, the belief that one God rules universally and will save not only the Jews but all those who turn to God. This universalism does not appear explicitly until Second Isaiah, which by all scholarly accounts except some fundamentalists, was written during and after the Babylonian exile. The Babylonian captivity was a great blow to many Jews, because they were taken out of Yahweh's divine jurisdiction. Early Hebrews believed that their prayers could not be answered in a foreign land. The sophisticated angelology of late books like Daniel has its source in Zoroastrianism.3 The angels of the early Hebrew books were disguises of Yahweh or one of his subordinate deities. The idea of separate angels appears only after contact with Zoroastrianism.

The central ideas of heaven and a fiery hell appear to come directly from the Israelite contact with Iranian religion. Pre-exilic books are explicit in their notions the afterlife: there is none to speak of. The early Hebrew concept is that all of us are made from the dust and all of us return to the dust. There is a shadowy existence in Sheol, but the beings there are so insignificant that Yahweh does not know them. The evangelical writer John Pelt reminds us that “the inhabitants of Sheol are never called souls (nephesh).”4


Saosyant, a savior born from Zoroaster's seed, will come and the dead shall be resurrected, body and soul. As the final accounting is made, husband is set against wife and brother against brother as the righteous and the damned are pointed out by the divine judge Saosyant. Personal and individual immortality is offered to the righteous; and, as a final fire melts away the world and the damned, a kingdom of God is established for a thousand years.7 The word paradis is Persian in origin and the concept spread to all Near Eastern religions in that form. “Eden” not “Paradise” is mentioned in Genesis, and paradise as an abode of light does not appear in Jewish literature until late books such as Enoch and the Psalm of Solomon.


Satan as the adversary or Evil One does not appear in the pre-exilic Hebrew books. In Job, one of the very oldest books, Satan is one of the subordinate deities in God's pantheon. Here Satan is God's agent, and God gives him permission to persecute Job. The Zoroastrian Angra Mainyu, the Evil One, the eternal enemy of God, is the prototype for late Jewish and Christian ideas of Satan. One scholar claims that the Jews acquired their aversion to homosexuality, not present in pre-exilic times, to the Iranian definition of the devil as a Sodomite.8



In 1 Chron. 21:1 (a book with heavy Persian influences), the Hebrew word satan appears for the first time as a proper name without an article. Before the exile, Satan was not a separate entity per se, but a divine function performed by the Yahweh's subordinate deities (sons of God) or by Yahweh himself. For example, in Num. 22:22 Yahweh, in the guise of mal'ak Yahweh, is “a satan” for Balaam and his ***. The editorial switch from God inciting David to take a census in 2 Sam 24:1, and a separate evil entity with the name “Satan” doing the same deed in 1 Chron. 21:1 is the strongest evidence that there was a radical transformation in Jewish theology. Something must have caused this change, and religious syncretism with Persia is the probable cause. G. Von Rad calls it a “correction due to religious scruples” and further states that “this correction would hardly have been carried out in this way if the concept of Satan had not undergone a rather decisive transformation.”9


The theory of religious influence from Persia is based not only on the generation spent in exile but the 400 years following in which the resurrected nation of Israel lived under strong Persian dominion and influence. The chronicler made his crucial correction to 2 Sam. 24:1 about 400 B.C.E. Persian influence increases in the later Hebrew works like Daniel and especially the intertestamental books. Therefore Satan as a separate evil force in direct opposition to God most likely came from the explicit Zoroastrian belief in such an entity. This concept is not consistent with pre-exilic beliefs.



There is no question that the concept of a separate evil principle was fully developed in the Zoroastrian Gathas (ca. 1,000 B.C.E.). The principal demon, called Druj (the Lie), is mentioned 66 times in the Gathas. But the priestly Jews would also have been exposed to the full Avestan scripture in which Angra Mainyu is mentioned repeatedly. His most prominent symbol is the serpent, so along with the idea of the “Lie,” we have the prototype for the serpent/tempter, in the priestly writers' garden of Genesis.10 There is no evidence that the Jews in exile brought with them any idea of Satan as a separate evil principle.


In Zoroastrianism the supreme God, Ahura Mazda, gives all humans free-will so that they may choose between good and evil. As we have seen, the religion of Zoroaster may have been the first to discover ethical individualism. The first Hebrew prophet to speak unequivocally in terms of individual moral responsibility was Ezekiel, a prophet of the Babylonian exile. Up until that time Hebrew ethics had been guided by the idea of the corporate personality – that, e.g., the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons (Ex. 20:1-2).

In 1 Cor. 15:42-49 Paul definitely assumes a dual-creation theory which seems to follow the outlines of Philo and the Iranians. There is only one man (Christ) who is created in the image of God, i.e., according to the “intellectual” creation of Gen. 1:26 (à la Philo). All the rest of us are created in the image of the “dust man,” following the material creation of Adam from the dust in Gen. 2:7.



Nick Gier. Emeritus Professor of Philosophy University of Idaho Senior Fellow Martin Institute of

 

[Link]

1) Why did your god create a devil, or "satan" that he knew would thwart his plans? Or did he secretly somehow want the devil to get his way sometimes?

He didn't know beforehand. Even humanity was not a thing and became a thing because Angels became full of themselves and it was to test them and humble them. Iblis was not set up to fail, all of it was unexpected. God knew that it can happen, but chances were his creation would be more sincere.

Why did he allow the Devil to live and misguide? It's because if he made a lesson out of him, all of creation would worship God purely out of fear. So he decided to allow evil to misguide and who better to make an enemy of all good creation but the first to deviate?

Iblis was an anomaly not meant to be, and we live in a world not meant to be. Even humanity may have not ever been a thing if Angels were humble in the first place.

While fear of hell is good in this world, it's because God is unseen, and God is feared while unseen. When he's manifest like he will be on the day of judgment, the fear of hell has no merit and hence will not redeem anyone. If he killed everyone trying to lead astray, fear of God would not be that of unseen, but manifest and of no or little merit.

 

[Link]

. So the fact that the recitation of the Quran is aesthetically pleasing to you personally is proof that God exists and people who don't believe in it go to hell?

I don't know how you conclude that as my position. The Quran is a proof from God. If it were not the case that writing can be a miracle, God would not have allowed his guide to be hidden and miracles of the physical type would still be in the open. But you won't accept that because you don't believe in God in the first place. But there are plenty of philosophical proofs for God and in the Quran many philosophical proofs are made for God.

 

[Ajax]

The Quran is a proof from God.

Really?
Islam being introduced in the 7th century, is presently at the same stage as Christianity was in the middle ages. Christians used to burn scientists and witches, and as of 2021, there were ten Muslim countries where apostasy from Islam was punishable by death.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Your ideas are totally contradictory to the Bible..

They are not..

God is supposedly omniscient, and that includes being able to see the past, present and future..

Yes .. G-d is omniscient and not part of the universe (space-time)

Satan was also supposedly a fallen angel or jinn who has rebelled against God..

Yes the original satan fell from grace .. but there are many devils amongst us.

..God knew this would happen..

Yes, but G-d did not MAKE it happen .. Lucifer made the decision to disobey G-d.

Also we do not have the responsibility of our own destiny, if God is omniscient and knows the future..

That is false. G-d seeing "time" from a different perspective, means that G-d sees "what will happen",
whereas the future is hidden from us.

In other words, "not happened yet" is a perception that G-d does not share.
A fixed future is no different to a fixed past .. it is what FIXES it (our decisions, amongst other things),
that is the point.

..so I repeat "not happened yet" is a PERCEPTION .. i.e. time is not immutable

 

[Ajax]

Of course they are contradictory and now you contradict yourself again...

The angels are subservient to G-d, and incapable of disobedience.

Yes the original satan fell from grace .. but there are many devils amongst us.

Another example...

G-d created angels, and the universe, and saw that it was "good".

Yes .. G-d is omniscient and not part of the universe (space-time)

If God is omniscient and can see the past, the present and the future, 1) he would have seen that not all angels are "good", and 2) he must have wanted to create Satan, who by the way, can do nothing without obtaining permission from God according to the Bible (see Job).

That is false. G-d seeing "time" from a different perspective, means that G-d sees "what will happen",
whereas the future is hidden from us.

Whether the future is hidden from us is irrelevant. The question is that, if there is an omniscient God who knows all our future, can we do something different from what God knows and sees? God can not change...Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change".

 

[muhammad_isa]

Of course they are contradictory and now you contradict yourself again...

No .. satan was never an angel .. satan is of the jinn .. he used to be WITH the angels!

..he must have wanted to create Satan, who by the way, can do nothing without obtaining permission from God according to the Bible (see Job).

Yes .. not one creature can do anything "without the permission of G-d".
That means that He can interfere at will.
..but most of the time, G-d leaves us to our own devices .. quite obviously!

Whether the future is hidden from us is irrelevant. The question is that, if there is an omniscient God who knows all our future, can we do something different from what God knows and sees?

Of course we can't from G-d's perspective .. it has "already happened", as far as G-d is concerned.
..but for us, it hasn't.
That's the whole point. G-d has created a "bubble", in which we are trapped in .. it seems to us as if time is "real", in as much as it can't be violated.
One way to imagine it, is waking up from a dream, and finding ourselves in another dimension.

God can not change...Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change".

Quoting ad-hoc verses from the Bible, with a presumed meaning is not authoritative.
It's like quoting a verse out-of-context such as "kill all disbelievers", claiming G-d tells us
to kill everybody who doesn't agree with us!

 

[Ajax]

No .. satan was never an angel .. satan is of the jinn .. he used to be WITH the angels!

*Staff Edit* but supposedly was an archangel. And despite what you said about angels, he disobeyed God.

Yes .. not one creature can do anything "without the permission of G-d".
That means that He can interfere at will.
..but most of the time, G-d leaves us to our own devices .. quite obviously!

So you accept that God, who 1) created Satan 2) creates evil according to Bible and 3) knew very well in advance that by creating "Satan" people will sin, gives permission to Satan to harass people and lead them to Hell, whilst on the other hand, He sacrificed his Son to save us from the sins that He pushes upon us...

Of course we can't from G-d's perspective .. it has "already happened", as far as G-d is concerned.
..but for us, it hasn't.

Irrespectively of what you think... the fact remains that we can't do anything different from what has already happened...

Quoting ad-hoc verses from the Bible, with a presumed meaning is not authoritative.
It's like quoting a verse out-of-context such as "kill all disbelievers", claiming G-d tells us
to kill everybody who doesn't agree with us!

Doesn't he tell us this?? Are you sure?
At least 10 countries around the world punish 'apostasy', which is the act of leaving religion, by death. These countries are: Afghanistan, Brunei Darussalam, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. According to Islamic law, apostasy is punishable by death. The right to apostasy in the world

You should check your facts before writing....

 

[muhammad_isa]

Jinns is an Arab mythology and don't exist...Grow up..

Have you "signed up" to the forum to make stupid remarks, or to learn about other people's religions?

So you accept that God, who 1) created Satan 2) creates evil according to Bible and 3) knew very well in advance that by creating "Satan" people will sin, gives permission to Satan to harass people and lead them to Hell..

..if it wasn't Lucifer who became the devil, it would have been someone else.
As I say, there are many devils from amongst us.

It comes with "the territory" i.e. free-will to tread a righteous path or otherwise.

..whilst on the other hand, He sacrificed his Son to save us from the sins that He pushes upon us...

Muslims don't believe that !

..the fact remains that we can't do anything different from what has already happened...

That makes no sense .. we CAN make decisions in our life, and do.

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

How do you feel when people threaten you with Hell?

Indifferent. We don't have that.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

How do you feel when people threaten you with Hell?

I feel like telling them: "I'm already in Hell, trapped in this conversation with you."

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I don't know how you conclude that as my position.

Because you literally said it. Lmao

 

[YoursTrue]

I feel like telling them: "I'm already in Hell, trapped in this conversation with you."

Why, you can't get out of the conversation?

 

[Heyo]

Why, you can't get out of the conversation?

(Duty Calls)

 

[YoursTrue]

(Duty Calls)

On the other hand, you're stuck in hell. Or immersed in it.

 

[JustGeorge]

On the other hand, you're stuck in hell. Or immersed in it.

RF isn't that bad.

 

[Ajax]

Have you "signed up" to the forum to make stupid remarks, or to learn about other people's religions?

I do like to learn more about other people's religions and have studied a few of them out of curiosity, but the problems begin when other people involve mythological and unreal stories like jinnis and riding horses which fly to heavens...I do accept though your right to believe in whatever you wish.. but in this case there is no point in discussing further..

That makes no sense .. we CAN make decisions in our life, and do.

If that is true, then there is no omniscient God. You can not have it both ways...

Anyway, to answer the question, I don't have any problem with threats of hell.. it doesn't exist most likely.. Christianity claims that hell is actually the separation from God.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If that is true, then there is no omniscient God. You can not have it both ways...

You have ignored my previous posts on this matter.
You assume that "time" is immutable and cannot be violated.
You see "not happened yet" as being definitive, DESPITE the fact that we know that "time"
is relative to the observer.

We observe that the speed of light is a constant in a vacuum. That is meaningless for G-d,
as G-d is not part of space-time.

Think along the lines of Einstein's relativity..