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How does homosexual activity benefit society?

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Doesn't mean they have to silence it. they don't have to promote it, but censoring it is ridiculous.
They should do it on their own time, not the tax payer's time.

They don't have to do that, but I wouldn't be too offended if it did.
What if a public school lead a prayer to pray for the souls of Mormons after telling the children that it's a false form of Christianity?

You have never heard of the boiling frog syndrome, have you?

You've never heard of the logical deduction and examining evidence syndrome, have you?

Socialism is a massive threat to property. The mere fact that there is no guarantee of being able to take home every cent that you earn. It's taken by the government before you even see it.

I hope you don't use public roads or the mail system.

It's affirmative action for liberals. It is not up to the government to make it equal, the invisible hand does that by itself.
You do realize that it was eliminated in 1987, right?

Nope. We only threaten entitlements. The only entitlements anyone has is to be born and to die.

Religious conservatives have actually tried to ban contraceptives, pornography, evolution being taught in schools, violent video games, "sodomy", gambling, alcohol and tobacco, "blasphemy", etc. You know full well that a lot of religious fundamentals would make homosexual acts and premarital sex illegal if they could. They also opposed the abolition of slavery, women's suffrage and the civil rights movement. Religious fundamentalism is all about control and superiority; keeping women, minorities and the poor in their place.
 
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nekoboy

Teenage neko
Schools cannot promote prayer because they are state institutions. It is forbidden by the First Amendment to the US Constitution.

You can express your religious views in any venue, except a state institution. Your freedom of expression and religion is protected by the First Amendment to the US Constitution.

"Congress shale make no law with respect to the establishment of religion, nor prohibit the free exercise thereof;"
Schools don't have to promote it, but they should allow it. If it is a voluntary, non-denominational prayer, they should allow it.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Schools don't have to promote it, but they should allow it. If it is a voluntary, non-denominational prayer, they should allow it.

They don't have to allow because religion can be disruptive in such settings. Someone bursting out in tongue right in the middle of class would be just wrong.

You don't get to yell fire in a crowded theater.
 

nekoboy

Teenage neko
What if a public school lead a prayer to pray for the souls of Mormons after telling the children that it's a false form of Christianity?
That would be promoting a specific religion. I have a problem when the government censors EVERYTHING ELSE.

I hope you don't use public roads or the mail system.
There really isn't any good reason the federal government should provide anything else other than that. The rest is up to the states.

You do realize that it was eliminated in 1987, right?
Yes, I was also referring to bills like it.

Religious conservatives have tried to ban contraceptives, pornography, evolution being taught in schools, violent video games, gambling, alcohol and tobacco. They also opposed the abolition of slavery, women's suffrage and the civil rights movement. Religious fundamentalism is all about control and superiority; keeping women, minorities and the poor in their place.
My church supported the abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, and the civil rights movement. Besides, when it comes to the rest you described, everyone has a right to picket it.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Without any real drive in life? I don't know about you, but the atheistic world view is boring. The alternative you suggest is boring. Like Puddleglum, I prefer my religious beliefs to your depressing, purposeless "reality". My religion gives me more hope than yours could ever give me. You don't have to agree, though. I'm not really trying to persuade anyone.

*sigh* Atheism is not necessarily nihilistic. Why would an invisible sky daddy be a prerequisite for purpose and meaning?
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Schools don't have to promote it, but they should allow it. If it is a voluntary, non-denominational prayer, they should allow it.

What part of forbidden by the US Constitution did you miss?

They can permit silent prayer or meditation; there are no thought police. But what prayers should the teacher lead... ?

Our Father who are in Heaven...

Or

Fair as a jasmine flower, the moon or a flake of snow,
Her hands adorned by the graceful veena staff,
Adored by Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the other deities,
Protect me O Goddess Saraswati, remover of ignorance.

Or

Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo

Which... ?

And whom is a "non-denominational prayer" addressed to?
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
The only point I am making is that it is a two way street. Gays don't have to make up the excuse "I was born that way" because God gave people free agency, even over their own weaknesses.
Agreed. They dont need that excuse because it is irrelevant. The reason homosexuality is not immoral is because it is harmless.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Mormons crack down on proxy baptisms; whistleblower

In response to recent media reports that well-known Jewish Holocaust victims and slain Jewish journalist Daniel Pearl were baptized by proxy, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is renewing and revamping efforts to crack down on the practice and, some believe, stop the attention.

The church said this week it had implemented a “new technological barrier” to prevent abuse of its massive genealogical database, parts of which have been used to carry out – as well as expose - proxy baptisms...
 

nekoboy

Teenage neko
What part of forbidden by the US Constitution did you miss?

They can permit silent prayer or meditation; there are no thought police. But what prayers should the teacher lead... ?

Our Father who are in Heaven...

Or

Fair as a jasmine flower, the moon or a flake of snow,
Her hands adorned by the graceful veena staff,
Adored by Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the other deities,
Protect me O Goddess Saraswati, remover of ignorance.

Or

Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo
Nam myo ho ren ge kyo

Which... ?

And whom is a "non-denominational prayer" addressed to?
They could let the student leave.

One time, my music teacher lead a prayer before a concert, against the will of the administrators. EPIC.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
My church supported the abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, and the civil rights movement. Besides, when it comes to the rest you described, everyone has a right to picket it.

Sure, they have a right to protest such things, but my point still stands that fundamentalists hate freedom and want take it away from those who don't conform to their specific brand of "morality".
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
nekoboy said:
Schools don't have to promote it, but they should allow it. If it is a voluntary, non-denominational prayer, they should allow it.

Consider the following:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/church-state/decisions.html\

infidels.org said:
U.S. Supreme Court Decisions

(arranged by date)

Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145 (1879)
Court finds that the federal antibigamy statute does not violate the First Amendment's guarantee of the free exercise of religion.

Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947)
Court finds that a New Jersey law which included students of Catholic schools in reimbursements to parents who sent their children to school on buses operated by the public transportation system does not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

McCollum v. Board of Education Dist. 71, 333 U.S. 203 (1948)
Court finds religious instruction in public schools a violation of the establishment clause and therefore unconstitutional.

Burstyn v. Wilson, 72 S. Ct. 777 (1952)
Government may not censor a motion picture because it is offensive to religious beliefs.

Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961)
Court holds that the state of Maryland cannot require applicants for public office to swear that they believed in the existence of God. The court unanimously rules that a religious test violates the Establishment Clause.

Engel v. Vitale, 82 S. Ct. 1261 (1962)
Any kind of prayer, composed by public school districts, even nondenominational prayer, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion.

Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963)
Court finds Bible reading over school intercom unconstitutional and Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203 (1963) - Court finds forcing a child to participate in Bible reading and prayer unconstitutional.

Epperson v. Arkansas, 89 S. Ct. 266 (1968)
State statue banning teaching of evolution is unconstitutional. A state cannot alter any element in a course of study in order to promote a religious point of view. A state's attempt to hide behind a nonreligious motivation will not be given credence unless that state can show a secular reason as the foundation for its actions.

Lemon v. Kurtzman, 91 S. Ct. 2105 (1971)
Established the three part test for determining if an action of government violates First Amendment's separation of church and state:
1) the government action must have a secular purpose;
2) its primary purpose must not be to inhibit or to advance religion;
3) there must be no excessive entanglement between government and religion.

Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980)
Court finds posting of the Ten Commandments in schools unconstitutional.

Wallace v. Jaffree, 105 S. Ct. 2479 (1985)
State's moment of silence at public school statute is unconstitutional where legislative record reveals that motivation for statute was the encouragement of prayer. Court majority silent on whether "pure" moment of silence scheme, with no bias in favor of prayer or any other mental process, would be constitutional.

Edwards v. Aquillard, 107 S. Ct. 2573 (1987)
Unconstitutional for state to require teaching of "creation science" in all instances in which evolution is taught. Statute had a clear religious motivation.

Allegheny County v. ACLU, 492 U.S. 573 (1989)
Court finds that a nativity scene displayed inside a government building violates the Establishment Clause.

Lee v. Weisman, 112 S. Ct. 2649 (1992)
Unconstitutional for a school district to provide any clergy to perform nondenominational prayer at elementary or secondary school graduation. It involves government sponsorship of worship. Court majority was particularly concerned about psychological coercion to which children, as opposed to adults, would be subjected, by having prayers that may violate their beliefs recited at their graduation ceremonies.

Church of Lukumi Babalu Ave., Inc. v. Hialeah, 113 S. Ct. 2217 (1993)
City's ban on killing animals for religious sacrifices, while allowing sport killing and hunting, was unconstitutional discrimination against the Santeria religion.

It is reasonable to assume that all, or almost all of the judges who made those rulings are Christians or Jews.

We live in a democracy. Judges are appointed by Presidents who are elected by the people. Do you object to democracy? Isn't the bottom line for you that God is only pleased with people who become Christians? What do you believe God will care about the most when people die, and he judges them? What does homosexuality have to do with school prayer?
 
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nekoboy

Teenage neko
Mormons crack down on proxy baptisms; whistleblower

In response to recent media reports that well-known Jewish Holocaust victims and slain Jewish journalist Daniel Pearl were baptized by proxy, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is renewing and revamping efforts to crack down on the practice and, some believe, stop the attention.

The church said this week it had implemented a “new technological barrier” to prevent abuse of its massive genealogical database, parts of which have been used to carry out – as well as expose - proxy baptisms...
They did that in response to Jews being offended that this was being done. I'm sure this will change in the course of time.
Mormon church responds to criticism of proxy baptisms, restricts access to Holocaust victims - The Washington Post
 

nekoboy

Teenage neko
Sure, they have a right to protest such things, but my point still stands that fundamentalists hate freedom and want take it away from those who don't conform to their specific brand of "morality".
I personally cannot take anyone's freedom away, but I will not support certain things either.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Butthurt atheists who take "seperation of church and state" to a ridiculous extreme, by keeping anyone from expressing religious views in public, especially in public schools.
Dont forget the people who are against same sex marriage.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
WHY WOULD GOD LET PEOPLE BE BORN WITH A PARAPHILIA IF THERE IS NO HOPE TO CHANGE?
Since homosexuality isn't a paraphilia, but a sexual identity, this question is not germane to the topic at hand.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Agnostic75 said:
A minority of homosexuals who try reparative therapy are able to become sexually attracted to women, but the best that many religiously motivated homosexuals can do is become celibate for life, and live the rest of their lives in lonely, sexual frustation.

nekoboy said:
Zoophiles and pedophiles are expected to put up with that misery.

Most people, including you and me, hope that zoophiles and pedophiles will refrain from those activities. Can you provide any good reasons why homosexuals should avoid same-sex behavior? Courts, and public opinion, have judged that zoophilia, and pedophilia, are harmful, and illegal. Are you suggesting that homosexuality should be illegal?

nekoboy said:
Homosexuals have a choice not to do that, but I will not support them either.

What does your support have to do with this thread? Quite obviously, people are free to support whatever they want to support.

If free will exists, most homosexuals would be able to avoid same-sex behavior under certain conditions if they wanted to, such as a threat to murder them, but not same-sex urges. In addition, most zoophiles would be able to avoid zoophilic behavior, but not zoophilic urges. Further, most pedophiles would be able to avoid pedophilic behavior, but not pedophilic urges.

You keep trying to avoid using your main argument, which is the Bible. Your scientific argument do not work since even some supporters of reparative therapy have admitted that it is only successful about 30% of the time. What you need to do is provide some evidence that God inspired and preserved the original Bible free of errors, including the parts about homosexuality. Even if God does oppose homosexuality, might does not make right.
 
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