How does one choose?

[Blackdog22]

I hear people say that they don't need God to be moral.

My question then is how is a person to choose?

I suppose that a position could be taken that everything is moral. Then murder and rape and beastiality and torture are all fine and dandy.

One could look at things logically. For instance Jezebel had a logical solution for Ahab's desire for a man's land. Simply kill the man and take his land.

Can a person rely on laws or traditions?

There once was a law that stores couldn't open on Sunday now there is no such law. Evidently laws change according to what people wish them to be. It used to be that holidays were celebrated on the traditional day but now holidays are often selebrated on a convenient monday. Evidently traditions change as well.

It was considered moral to stone people on the Sabbath for the majority of our species existence, it was considered moral by your holy book to burn witches at the stake, it was considered moral to own slaves, the ten commandments only have 2 laws that are even relevant to our lives. The majority of the laws you are speaking of are completely irrational or immoral teachings or both.

We are moral in SPITE of religion, not because of it. Why would you think otherwise?

Our moral teachings have evolved whether you think so or not. The civil war was fought because the southern people thought it was okay with Jesus to own slaves, the north fought to free slaves in spite of the Bible. I think that is a proof that we are moral beings without any book and that the book is actually at fault for causing immorality. I don't think this is always the case, but there are obviously major cases where it has happened in the past. I say the past because Christianity took hold of secular morality and the people that follow it now pretends like our secular morality has something to do with the Bible, it doesn't. Sorry.

 

[Father Heathen]

I hear people say that they don't need God to be moral.

My question then is how is a person to choose?

It's indisputable that reason and compassion both serve as a vastly superior basis for morality than superstitious and arbitrary nonsense does. So rather than relying upon what some ancient goat herders have said about a cloud surfing wizard, one should instead simply use their head and their 'heart' (figuratively speaking). It produces much, much better results.

 

[Blackdog22]

God does not specifically state that the elimination of Canaanites was requied for Israel to posess the land.

Since God is just, there is no doubt in my mind that God was eliminating evil. According to God that is a good thing to do.

In a modern example there was the elimination of Hitler, who no doubt practiced evil. There is the execution of murderers in some states in the USA.

So you think that Gods idea of morality is to kill everyone who is considered evil?

Fine, why does Satan still exist? God must enjoy the torture and murder of humans since he refuses to get rid of this "evil" known as Satan.

 

[waitasec]

If morality is subjective then the murderer and rapist etc are moral.

yes, as we can see how morality plays out in the bible...

 

[Sunstone]

If morality is subjective then the murderer and rapist etc are moral.

Says you.

 

[Nakosis]

yes, as we can see how morality plays out in the bible...

Morality in the Bible is obedience to God above all else. Acceptance of God's righteousness. I think that is the (only?) basis of morality in of the OT.

The NT adds adds compassion, the golden rule, charity, concepts of ascetics.

I suppose one can argue that is was necessary to teach obedience before compassion.

 

[waitasec]

Morality in the Bible is obedience to God above all else. Acceptance of God's righteousness. I think that is the (only?) basis of morality in of the OT.

The NT adds adds compassion, the golden rule, charity, concepts of ascetics.

I suppose one can argue that is was necessary to teach obedience before compassion.

obedience to god is still subjective though...

compassion, the golden rule, was taught in the hebrew bible in leviticus 19

my personal take on the golden rule however is that they were to be good to their fellow tribesmen and not necessarily everyone except for those who wanted to be a part of the tribe of israel, and i also think that is what jesus was meaning when he said to love your enemies...those who you have a problem with in your tribe. it's that our world has become smaller today that our sense of empathy has gone beyond the borders we originally set up that separated ourselves from one another...

 

[Father Heathen]

Since God is just

Not if you're going by the bible. According to which, god gave instructions on how to beat slaves, how to sell ones own daughter as a sex slave, and commanded that people be brutally executed for eating shrimp, rotating crops and speaking to menstruating women.

I'm certainly glad that I hold a much higher standard of morality.

 

[Father Heathen]

I am not by nature a moral person.

Humans by nature are moral due to our ability to reason and our innate empathy and intuition. We're social animals after all. Immorality comes from an inability or unwillingness be rational or compassionate, which is a result of being damaged emotionally/psychologically (religion often inflicts such damage).

 

[Nakosis]

obedience to god is still subjective though...

compassion, the golden rule, was taught in the hebrew bible in leviticus 19

my personal take on the golden rule however is that they were to be good to their fellow tribesmen and not necessarily everyone except for those who wanted to be a part of the tribe of israel, and i also think that is what jesus was meaning when he said to love your enemies...those who you have a problem with in your tribe. it's that our world has become smaller today that our sense of empathy has gone beyond the borders we originally set up that separated ourselves from one another...

Commandments still mostly from a position of obedience,

You're right however, in "Love them as yourself" there's at least a reason given of empathy.

Jesus said your neighbor was whoever showed you mercy.

 

[waitasec]

Commandments still mostly from a position of obedience,

but commandments that are not conveyed personally are subjective commandments as it is not relayed by the source but by another person. see what i mean?

You're right however, in "Love them as yourself" there's at least a reason given of empathy.

Jesus said your neighbor was whoever showed you mercy.

i never came across that, can you provide a passage please?

 

[Nakosis]

but commandments that are not conveyed personally are subjective commandments as it is not relayed by the source but by another person. see what i mean?

No, but I'll look back through the posts. I don't think Moses was a bad guy. But I don't think his "laws" were directly from God. Seems obvious there are different authors involved with different concepts of God,

The OT itself is two different sections... The Pentateuch and the later history of Judea. Don't know it's important but I suspect it's reasonable to see a difference in philosophies in theology

i never came across that, can you provide a passage please?

Luke 10:29 and what follows...

 

[waitasec]

No, but I'll look back through the posts. I don't think Moses was a bad guy. But I don't think his "laws" were directly from God. Seems obvious there are different authors involved with different concepts of God,

The OT itself is two different sections... The Pentateuch and the later history of Judea. Don't know it's important but I suspect it's reasonable to see a difference in philosophies in theology

i agree it (morality) is always evolving.

Luke 10:29 and what follows...

thanks...so the good samaritan was the good neighbor...
i've often wondered why jesus didn't make the jew the 'good samaritan' instead. having the jew help the one whom he considered to be in a lower position as their society dictated.
since jesus came for the lost sheep of israel

 

[More In Common]

I hear people say that they don't need God to be moral.

I suppose that a position could be taken that everything is moral. Then murder and rape and beastiality and torture are all fine and dandy.

Can a person rely on laws or traditions?

To the original post...

You can't rely on laws or traditions to dictate morality. It was once lawful to own slaves - do you believe that is moral or ethical? Probably not.

We've got to genuinely search our own hearts, minds and religious/spiritual convictions to determine what's fair, honest, just, compassionate, decent, respectful - to determine what's moral.


We don't severely punish mentally disabled individuals for crimes because we believe that they don't fully understand the implications of their actions - that they don't realize what they're doing is considered wrong.

I try not to blame bigots or racists for their actions, realizing they're slaves to their ignorance.

Morality is personal. If you do something you believe is wrong, that is immoral.

At the end of the day we must each take responsibility for our own actions and be willing to accept the consequences for standing on our beliefs.

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Hope this helps answer your question and contributes positively to the overall conversation!

 

[Father Heathen]

If morality is subjective then the murderer and rapist etc are moral.

Just because morality isn't absolute doesn't make all forms of morality equal. Actions are measured by their cause and effect.

 

[Nakosis]

but commandments that are not conveyed personally are subjective commandments as it is not relayed by the source but by another person. see what i mean?

What laws are not relayed by someone. You mean like Moses speaking on God's behalf?

Some Christians seem to think every word in the Bible was written of God's behalf.

I suspect prophets don't really do dictation. They maybe inspired by visions and such, However I'd suspect much of the laws were derive from Egyptian beliefs and those from rulers or wise counsel. Man developed much of these moral ideas through trial and error.

 

[Me Myself]

How does one not choose?

You can choose to follow one religion for morality or another different religion for morality, so religious people also choose their morality.

If you just decide to stick with the morality of the religion your family followed, you are still choosing to stick with it, so it is still a choice.

So you ask me how can one choose, let me ask you, how can you manage to not choose?

It doesn´t matter if you are atheist or not, it will always be a choice, and because of it being a choice with several options on a matter that nothing is set in stone (because even if you say "religion", there are several) it will always be a choice.

So, how does one not choose?

 

[waitasec]

What laws are not relayed by someone. You mean like Moses speaking on God's behalf?

i'm thinking more in general really...
the hebrew bible and the christian bible are revelations brought to people via 3rd party

Some Christians seem to think every word in the Bible was written of God's behalf.

i understand that but if you think about why there is a 3rd party revelation in the first place then the entire idea is moot, imho

I suspect prophets don't really do dictation. They maybe inspired by visions and such, However I'd suspect much of the laws were derive from Egyptian beliefs and those from rulers or wise counsel. Man developed much of these moral ideas through trial and error.

yes i agree. and to add to that, i think people are inspired by convictions or witnessing one stand with their conviction...that is what is attractive about the revelation, not the revelation it self.

 

[Tathagata]

I hear people say that they don't need God to be moral.

My question then is how is a person to choose?

I suppose that a position could be taken that everything is moral. Then murder and rape and beastiality and torture are all fine and dandy.

One could look at things logically. For instance Jezebel had a logical solution for Ahab's desire for a man's land. Simply kill the man and take his land.

Can a person rely on laws or traditions?

There once was a law that stores couldn't open on Sunday now there is no such law. Evidently laws change according to what people wish them to be. It used to be that holidays were celebrated on the traditional day but now holidays are often selebrated on a convenient monday. Evidently traditions change as well.

There's this thing called philosophy. Maybe you've heard of it. There's also this thing called human empathy.

Normative ethics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


.

 

[Muffled]

the ability to empathize...
which is a very common ability within our species.

Perhaps it is common but certanly not unanmimous. I am not by nature an empathic. I am an ego driven person. I would care little about what happens to other people if it were not for God's spirit moving me to do so.

I suspect that ego is more common that altruism.

Do you eat? How can a person eat anything knowing that he is destroying the thing that he is eating? Empathy does not seem to work very well in this instance.