How does one choose?

[InChrist]

yes it does

No, it doesn't.

 

[waitasec]

No, it doesn't.

prove it...

 

[The Sum of Awe]

According to the scriptures humans were made in the image of God. God's standard of morality and right or wrong is written on each person's conscience. The problem is that in this fallen world humans with their sinful nature oftentimes choose to ignore their conscience if it interferes with self interest or desires.

Erm... sure.. that's exactly why I disagree with the Christian moral system because I ignore myself 99% of the time?

 

[Nakosis]

No, it doesn't.

It does condone treating women as property. Women don't own anything, they are themselves owned.

Rape I don't think is a concept put forth. The crime is a violation of property. Women are owned. If they aren't owned by someone, it's ok to take possession of them. Seems an obligation of the women of Israel to procreate. To whoever has ownership of them. Women don't seem to have a say in the matter.

That's what I understand from reading books like Judges and Ruth. Am I wrong?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

The Bible does not condone rape, slavery or murder.

Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
2 Samuel 12:11-14
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Judges 5:30
Exodus 21:7-11
Zechariah 14:1-2

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
-Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Okay, this isn't just "descriptive", this is a moral precept. It basically says the worst part about rape is the damage of a "property", not the woman herself. You gotta marry the *****, cause, hey, she's damaged goods, and you break it, you bought it.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Slavery...


"Here are some other instructions you must present to Israel: ‘If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master" (Ex. 21:1-6).

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Last and least, killing:


13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.
14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.
(Deut 20:13-14)

 

[Alceste]

Your holy book condones rape, slavery and murder. I would reassess my feelings of moral superiority if I were you.

It is so easy to throw out blanket statements like that against the Bible as if it is a fact you are so sure about and everyone else is supposed to accept without question. The Bible does not condone rape, slavery or murder. If you want to cite or discuss one passage at a time, which your superficial reading seems to have indicated to you that the Bible condones such things, then why not give a reference?

Each underlined word links to a bible passage that affirms my factual claim. It always amuses me to discover bible inerrantists who have never even read the thing. Thanks for the giggles.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I hear people say that they don't need God to be moral.

My question then is how is a person to choose?

I suppose that a position could be taken that everything is moral. Then murder and rape and beastiality and torture are all fine and dandy.

One could look at things logically. For instance Jezebel had a logical solution for Ahab's desire for a man's land. Simply kill the man and take his land.

Can a person rely on laws or traditions?

There once was a law that stores couldn't open on Sunday now there is no such law. Evidently laws change according to what people wish them to be. It used to be that holidays were celebrated on the traditional day but now holidays are often selebrated on a convenient monday. Evidently traditions change as well.

Most of the time people create their own set of morals which are usually in harmony with the lifestyle they want to lead.

 

[waitasec]

Last and least, killing:


13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.
14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.
(Deut 20:13-14)

but see god had a reason :sarcastic

 

[InChrist]

Each underlined word links to a bible passage that affirms my factual claim. It always amuses me to discover bible inerrantists who have never even read the thing. Thanks for the giggles.

I don't have time today to address each one of your false accusations, but I will as soon as I have the opportunity.

 

[Alceste]

I don't have time today to address each one of your false accusations, but I will as soon as I have the opportunity.

Lol at "false accusations". It is a fact that each word links to a bible passage where god or one of his venerated representatives explicitly tells his followers to commit those atrocities, often providing detailed instructions on how to go about it.

What you mean is, you intend to explain away these appalling bible passages as soon as you can talk yourself into believing they mean something other than what they obviously say, or that atrocities committed against "evildoers" are actually good.

 

[InChrist]

Lol at "false accusations". It is a fact that each word links to a bible passage where god or one of his venerated representatives explicitly tells his followers to commit those atrocities, often providing detailed instructions on how to go about it.

What you mean is, you intend to explain away these appalling bible passages as soon as you can talk yourself into believing they mean something other than what they obviously say, or that atrocities committed against "evildoers" are actually good.

Anyone can take a verse or two out of the Bible and make it appear to say or mean whatever they want it to, but that does not mean that person's view is accurate or even remotely true. I know this is a favorite pastime of those whose only desire is to find fault with the scriptures or God. But again imposing your own ideas onto the scriptures doesn't mean you are correct. It only says to me you are obsessed with the biblical Creator God, in a contrary, negative way to the point of trying to contrive falsehoods against Him.

I will address your first accusation of rape (Numbers 31:17-18) and will eventually address the other two of slavery and murder.


[FONT=&quot]You are attempting to insert your own ideas and words into the scriptural history which are not there when you assume and accuse the Bible of condoning rape. The text does not say or indicate at all that the women were raped. For one thing, God had already given laws against rape in general to Israel so the men would be breaking God’s law if they had raped the women. Secondly, the Israelite men had been commanded not to have sexual relations with Moabite and Medianite women (Num. 25:1-9) and some had already experienced plagues and executions for unlawfully doing so. So even if they did rape, as you suggest without any indication from the text, it was not condoned in the Bible or by God.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[waitasec]

Anyone can take a verse or two out of the Bible and make it appear to say or mean whatever they want it to, but that does not mean that person's view is accurate or even remotely true. I know this is a favorite pastime of those whose only desire is to find fault with the scriptures or God. But again imposing your own ideas onto the scriptures doesn't mean you are correct. It only says to me you are obsessed with the biblical Creator God, in a contrary, negative way to the point of trying to contrive falsehoods against Him.

I will address your first accusation of rape (Numbers 31:17-18) and will eventually address the other two of slavery and murder.


[FONT=&quot]You are attempting to insert your own ideas and words into the scriptural history which are not there when you assume and accuse the Bible of condoning rape. The text does not say or indicate at all that the women were raped. For one thing, God had already given laws against rape in general to Israel so the men would be breaking God’s law if they had raped the women. [/B]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

actually god had given laws against raping women within the tribe of israel...

consider leviticus 19

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: ‘Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy...

20 “‘If a man sleeps with a female slave who is promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment.[a] Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the tent of meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the LORD for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

in this case, the rape was absolved by the offering of a lamb

the only exception god gives about foreigners is this..

...33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God...


i'm curious as to the importance of killing little boys but not little girls...
why keep young virgins..

here's scripture that differentiates between the types of punishments for rape...
dueteronomy 22...

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her...

apparently what brings worth to a virgin is if she's pledged...


something else i stumbled upon....which is equally disturbing...
since god supposedly created the human body he should know that not all girls bleed when they have sex the 1st time...i didn't.

20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death.

Secondly, the Israelite men had been commanded not to have sexual relations with Moabite and Medianite women (Num. 25:1-9) and some had already experienced plagues and executions for unlawfully doing so. So even if they did rape, as you suggest without any indication from the text, it was not condoned in the Bible or by God.

hence the reason they had to be virgin girls..
i mean really...are you seriously defending this garbage?

 

[JacobEzra.]

I hear people say that they don't need God to be moral.

My question then is how is a person to choose?

I suppose that a position could be taken that everything is moral. Then murder and rape and beastiality and torture are all fine and dandy.

It doesn't take a genius to understand how murder and rape and even bestiality is morally wrong! Its called logic

One could look at things logically. For instance Jezebel had a logical solution for Ahab's desire for a man's land. Simply kill the man and take his land.

Can a person rely on laws or traditions?

What does Ahab and Jezebel have to do with laws and traditions?

There once was a law that stores couldn't open on Sunday now there is no such law. Evidently laws change according to what people wish them to be. It used to be that holidays were celebrated on the traditional day but now holidays are often selebrated on a convenient monday. Evidently traditions change as well.

No, what holiday is "selebrated on a convenient monday"?

When was stores completely closed on Sundays? And what exactly is immoral about them not being closed on Sundays?

 

[Nakosis]

hence the reason they had to be virgin girls..
i mean really...are you seriously defending this garbage?

So the plague was a social disease?

Great way to stop the spread of syphilis, kill everyone infected.

 

[waitasec]

There once was a law that stores couldn't open on Sunday now there is no such law. Evidently laws change according to what people wish them to be. It used to be that holidays were celebrated on the traditional day but now holidays are often selebrated on a convenient monday. Evidently traditions change as well.

why was the law there in the 1st place?

 

[Muffled]

One chooses because one already has morality

edit: we don't choose rather we already have morality

Are you saying that you were born with it? Does that mean it came from a previous life? If so how can you be sure that the source of your morality from a previous life was not the Bible?

 

[9Westy9]

Are you saying that you were born with it? Does that mean it came from a previous life? If so how can you be sure that the source of your morality from a previous life was not the Bible?

To an extent. More we choose morality because of how and where we were raised, past experiences and sometimes through reason and debate.

I don't believe I had a previous life

I know it's not the bible because my morality differs from it.

 

[Muffled]

I think my morality is based on how I effect others. Obviously if I don't like to be killed then I don't go around killing other people. I also would run the risk of ending up in jail. Only an irrational mind couldn't put this together(not saying you are irrational).

I consider stoning old people on Sundays wrong, I consider slaughtering kids for calling someone a bald head wrong, I consider mass genocide and then forced rape wrong, I don't consider torturing someone forever because they don't believe something I am saying as moral. If you do then I would say I simply don't agree with your morality. If you don't I would ask you to go back and read what your God, supposedly, imposed on people for the majority of our species existence. 2000 years wasn't a long time ago.

Other than bestiality I have no idea what you are talking about. The bible God is full a lust for genocide. The entire idea of the "end times" is that our entire species, who doesn't believe, will be brutally slaughtered by your moral God. He also endorses rape in the OT and child sacrifice. So lets turn this question back at you. Why are you moral in spite of the immorality of your God?
The rest of your post is more of what I would expect from a child or a religious person who has felt cornered. I guess it is typical, but dissapointing.

God standard remains the same? This just furthers my above arguments. Why are you not out stoning old ladies at Lowe's? Why aren't you murdering gays, adulterers, slanderers, people who curse and blaspheme, everyone who worships another God that you do?

That "some" of the people of the north agreed upon. It wasn't only the very religious who discovered this. It still doesn't change the fact that the south thought it was okay to own slaves because the moral Bible God condoned it. What this comes down to is that God isn't clear at all and contradicts himself in his messages. Either way our interpretation of the Bible is changed to fit in with secular morality, not the other way around.

So you disagree with history then? The inquisition never happened? Salem Witch trials never happened? If you think murder isn't wrong then what exactly do you think is gonna happen to atheists at the end times?

Your whole post wreaks of someone who has either never read the Bible, is being intentionally dishonest regarding the Bible or simply has no grasp on his own religions history.(Not that I think we should hold current Christians responsible for every action in the past, but to say that nothing happened is an obvious sign of ignorance.)

However the question is how do you know that you should think of others before acting?

I disagree. It seems just as rational to think only of myself when taking action and not think about others. If someone disagrees with you that automatically makes them irrational? That isn't the way it works. You have to show that the other person doesn't have any reasons then you can call them irrational. Simply because you have reasons to believe, does not mean that other people don't have reasons to disbelieve.

You are inconsistent. You are in affect saying that you don't believe that punishment is moral but previously you base your understanding of morality on a wish not to be punished.

This statement is false and you will not be able to prove it.

This makes perfect sense. In order to have a moral world, it must have moral people. That means the immoral have to be eliminated. Suppose you wished to have a peaceful party but you know someone who causes trouble. The answer is simple you don't invite the troublemaker. You eliminate him from your party.

You are in error. I do sometimes punish those who transgress against me. When you say that God is immoral you are setting yourself up as the arbiter of what is moral. However I don't consider you to be a better source of morality than myself. Who gets to choose. In our world the person with the power chooses. For instance I was sent to prison by a judge who I felt was not being moral but he had the power and used it. God holds all the power so that gives Him the right to make the rules. Otherwise He has the power to send you to prison.

This shows a complete lack of understanding of God on your part. I do what I do by the grace of God and I do not see any inconsistency in it. God does allow evil in the world but He also reserves the right to punish that evil. If he doesn't wish to have me be his instrument to punish evildoers that is his prerogative. That means He is reserving that right for Himself.

He also condones divorce but that does not mean that He is in favor of it. He said men do it because of the hardness of their hearts. The command is to love your neighbor and Jesus made it pretty clear that you neighbor is the person near to you. No doubt the slaves were near their masters.

I don't disagree with history. I don't believe the inquisition was inspired by God. I don't believe for a mintute that the witch trials were inspired by God. I consider murder something that is done by men. I believe that God and only God has the right to end a life and do not consider it murder when He does so.