How Gorbachev was misled over assurances against NATO expansion

[Revoltingest]

Russia lost the cold war.

Did they?
That's commonly said.
But how is a mutual reduction of hostilities a loss for anyone?

So the NATO should have sought peace and alliance with the defeated country.
But didn't.

Things were relatively peaceful.
Russia traded with many western countries.
But Putin just put an end to that by invading
Ukraine, destroying civilian buildings, killing
civilians, & committing war crimes. Ukraine
was no threat to Russia.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Russia has never invaded a NATO country.
Ukraine is not NATO.
And Russia has no intention to invade and occupy a NATO country

NATO has never invaded a Warsaw Pact country either. But Russia has: Hungary and Czechoslovakia during the Cold War period.

 

[Revoltingest]

Russia has never invaded a NATO country.
Ukraine is not NATO.
And Russia has no intention to invade and occupy a NATO country

But Russia has invaded countries not in NATO, eg, Finland,
Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine. This is why NATO must have
a strong defense against Russia, which is a predator.

What your Russians are like, murderous ******** who
openly admit raping, & state intent to kill civilians.....

Spoiler: Language that violates RF standards.

Let Russian soldiers in Ukraine resign or die a swift death.

 

[Augustus]

Russia has never invaded a NATO country.
Ukraine is not NATO.
And Russia has no intention to invade and occupy a NATO country

But they have invaded Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Georgia, Moldova, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Ukraine, Kazakstan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Finland, etc. multiple times in the past 100 years.

So you are really agreeing that all countries who rightfully fear Russian invasion should join NATO to protect themselves from Russian aggression.

Why do you deny these countries the right to protect themselves from an aggressive superpower?

Why do you side with the oppressor? You claim to be on the side of the people, but always side with the powerful oppressor.

 

[Estro Felino]

Ukraine
was no threat to Russia.

From 2014 to 2021 Russian speaking citizens were harassed by Ukrainian nationalists.
Hence the special military mission.
This is what many Italian media are saying.

 

[Estro Felino]

But they have invaded Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Georgia, Moldova, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Ukraine, Kazakstan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, etc. multiple times in the past 100 years.

So you are agreeing that all countries who rightfully fear Russian invasion should join NATO to protect themselves from Russian aggression.

Why do you deny these countries the right to protect themselves from an aggressive superpower?

Why do you side with the oppressor? You claim to be on the side of the people, but always side with the powerful oppressor.

So you agree with those who claim Putin wants to conquer Europe?

 

[Augustus]

From 2014 to 2021 Russian speaking citizens were harassed by Ukrainian nationalists.

And now everyone in those cities is exploited by Russian warlords and gangsters.

So you agree with those who claim Putin wants to conquer Europe?

I agree he is a threat to many European nations.

Why do you side with the superpower oppressor against tiny Estonia? Why can't Estonia defend herself?

You claim to be pro-people.

 

[Revoltingest]

From 2014 to 2021 Russian speaking citizens were harassed by Ukrainian nationalists.
Hence the special military mission.
This is what many Italian media are saying.

Russians say this, but even if true, it does not justify
invasion, war, rape, & total destruction of cities.
I also note that Russians harass people in their own
country. One broker I know here fled Russia because
of virulent anti-semitism. Russia also has Nazis &
Soviet sympathizers. It's a ****hole country that
shouldn't lord its inferior morality over other countries.

 

[Wandering Monk]

So you agree with those who claim Putin wants to conquer Europe?

He bemoaned the fall of the Soviet Union in 2005. What does that tell you? He wants it restored. Same types of grievances Hitler aired before launching attacks on the Rhineland and the Sudetenland.

 

[F1fan]

Russia lost the cold war.
So the NATO should have sought peace and alliance with the defeated country.
But didn't.

Yet Russia's economy and standard of living benefitted greatly from this loss. Now Putin has sacrificed these gains with a stupid invasion and mass murder. Their economy is destined to collapse as the summer goes on. The planet sees the mass murder as a deal breaker for any sort of reconciliation. And with the Russian people saying they support Putin in polling (even if many of these folks lie out of fear, or are misinformed by state media) let them suffer their consequences, and learn that elections have consequences.

 

[Estro Felino]

You claim to be pro-people.

I am. I listen to the voice of the people. To the Volksgeist.
I know my people does not want to go to war.

 

[Estro Felino]

Russians say this, but even if true, it does not justify
invasion, war, rape, & total destruction of cities.
I also note that Russians harass people in their own
country. One broker I know here fled Russia because
of virulent anti-semitism. Russia also has Nazis &
Soviet sympathizers. It's a ****hole country that
shouldn't lord its inferior morality over other countries.

I understand. If Americans want to go to war...against Russia...I couldn't care less.
As long as they do not demand that Europeans join them.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hitler is offended at being compared to Putin....

 

[Wandering Monk]

I understand. If Americans want to go to war...against Russia...I couldn't care less.
As long as they do not demand that Europeans join them.

If America wanted to go to war with Russia right now, it wouldn't even be a contest. Russia's economy is smaller than Canada's. It can't sustain a long term conflict. So why hasn't America gone to war with Russia, now when Russia is at its weakest.

You never answer this question for some reason.

 

[Revoltingest]

I understand. If Americans want to go to war...against Russia...I couldn't care less.
As long as they do not demand that Europeans join them.

You should care.
Thermonuclear war has much fallout, both literal & figurative.
But you could help prevent it....urge Italy & other countries
to help in the economic embargo against Russia. Send the
message that invasions are too expensive to be worthwhile.

BTW, if Italy sides with Russia against USA, then I'll personally
ask Biden to brutally conquer Italy, & impose new laws....
- Italian food will be replaced by McDonalds.
- Ferrari & other car makers will make only Trabant replicas.
- The Italian language will be replaced by Texas accented English.
- Tuscany will be re-named New Alabama.
- Venice will be flooded. OK, mission already accomplished.

 

[Estro Felino]

You never answer this question for some reason.

Because American law says that you need a reason to go to war.

 

[Wandering Monk]

You should care.
Thermonuclear war has much fallout, both literal & figurative.
But you could help prevent it....urge Italy & other countries
to help in the economic embargo against Russia. Send the
message that invasions are too expensive to be worthwhile.

Another good point: the costs of military confrontation in economic and human terms are far higher than just negotiating for the resources you want. Assuming of course this war is about resources rather than ideology. Russia can't stand the idea of free market democracies on her borders.

 

[Augustus]

I am. I listen to the voice of the people. To the Volksgeist.
I know my people does not want to go to war.

Why don't you listen to the voice of the people of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, etc.?

What was the best chance for Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to avoid being victims of a war of conquest: join NATO or simply hope Russia, a country with a track record of invading weak neighbours on dozens of occasions, decides to allow them to exist?

 

[Wandering Monk]

Because American law says that you need a reason to go to war.

Where exactly does American law say that.

And if American law is an impediment to invading Russia, why do you keep saying that America wants to go to war with Russia? Where is the threat if American law is preventing America from attacking Russia?

 

[Revoltingest]

Because American law says that you need a reason to go to war.

Does it?