How Gorbachev was misled over assurances against NATO expansion

[Estro Felino]

BTW, if Italy sides with Russia against USA, then I'll personally
ask Biden to brutally conquer Italy, & impose new laws....
- Italian food will be replaced by McDonalds.
- Ferrari & other car makers will make only Trabant replicas.
- The Italian language will be replaced by Texas accented English.
- Tuscany will be re-named New Alabama.
- Venice will be flooded. OK, mission already accomplished.

If the invading American soldiers are very cute...I say ...okay,

 

[Revoltingest]

If the invading American soldiers are very cute...I say ...okay,

I'll request that only our ugliest & most brutal
soldiers invade Italy. Expect no foreplay.

 

[Estro Felino]

I'll request that only our ugliest & most brutal
soldiers invade Italy. Expect no foreplay.

Jokes aside, I can ensure you that nobody wants to make war with anybody here.
The notion of war is light years away from what they discuss here.

 

[pearl]

2) if the aim is to antagonize, harass, provoke Russia and exclude her from the NATO, the aim is malicious.

Really?
On 20–21 August 1968, Czechoslovakia was jointly invaded by four Warsaw Pact countries: the Soviet Union, Poland, Bulgaria and Hungary.
Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia - Wikipedia
This is the past Putin wishes to resurrect, for the purpose of his legacy.

 

[stvdv]

That murdering of women and children is so misunderstood.

Newton's third Law is a fact, even if you ridicule it

 

[Augustus]

I heard too many stories now to believe Russia is the bad guy here

Why do you deny small countries the chance to protect themselves from an aggressive superpower who has invaded them multiple times in recent memory and was a brutal overlord?

Why do you see them as aggressors who deserve to be punished?

 

[Revoltingest]

Jokes aside, I can ensure you that nobody wants to make war with anybody here.
The notion of war is light years away from what they discuss here.

Best to avoid war.

 

[stvdv]

I heard too many stories now to believe Russia is the bad guy here

Why do you deny small countries the chance to protect themselves from an aggressive superpower who has invaded them multiple times in recent memory and was a brutal overlord?

Not what I said, nor what I implied

Why do you see them as aggressors who deserve to be punished?

Not what I said, just your vivid imagination

BUT

I do know that the third Law of Newton is a fact

 

[Father Heathen]

Are you saying that this is the dialogue that would take place?

Dialogue.
Russia: May I join in?
NATO: No...we created NATO exclusively to antagonize you and to wage war against you.
If you and I become friends, the point of NATO's existence disappears.

He said self-defense. If you have to misrepresent other people's points of view to sustain your own, then your narrative is trash.

 

[Estro Felino]

He said self-defense. If you have to misrepresent other people's points of view to sustain your own, then your narrative is trash.

Okay. If I understood correctly, both Dems and GOP support the NATO. Right?

 

[Father Heathen]

That murdering of women and children is so misunderstood.

Not just murder but reports of rape and torture have emerged.

 

[Augustus]

Not what I said, just your vivid imagination

Can you explain how you can consider Russia not to be the bad guy, despite waging a war of aggression against a neighbour who offered no threat then?

If you support the right of small countries to defend themselves from a hostile superpower neighbour who has invaded and oppressed them in the near past and likely seeks to oppress them again, you accept they have a right to join NATO if they choose.

If you also accept Russia gets to invade neighbours who don't do what it wants them to do, then you don't accept their right to self-defence.

And if you do accept their right to self-defence, then Russia is the bad guy.

I do know that the third Law of Newton is a fact

Another one of these silly analogies like "poking the bear" that denies the agencies of all of the actors involved, especially the desires of small nations to protect themselves from imperialist oppression.

 

[stvdv]

Another one of these silly analogies like "poking the bear"

Not a silly analogy

Every actions is bound to get a reaction
The Law of Karma is a proven fact

 

[Estro Felino]

Not a silly analogy

Every actions is bound to get a reaction
The Law of Karma is a proven fact

In my opinion religious people all agree with that concept.
There are universal truths like the thirst for justice and the thirst for truth.

We Christians believe in a universal, otherworldly justice. But many other religions do too.

 

[Augustus]

Not a silly analogy

Every actions is bound to get a reaction
The Law of Karma is a proven fact

It is silly as you used it to absolve Russia from blame by saying "Russia is not the bad guy" for starting a war of aggression against a country who offers no threat.

Also karma is not a fact, just a feel good myth, and laws of physics don't apply to human social relations

You are also seem to be saying that it is karma that countries who try to defend themselves from being oppressed by a superpower with hostile intentions sort of deserve to be invaded? "the invader is not the bad guy"

Why not argue that if you invade and oppress weak countries they will seek to defend themselves from you and they should have this right and anyone who opposes this right is the bad guy?

 

[stvdv]

It is silly as you used it to absolve Russia from blame by saying "Russia is not the bad guy" for starting a war of aggression against a country who offers no threat.

Your interpretation of my words, not mine. Russia creates huge karma, and probably gets it back soon

Also karma is not a fact, just a feel good myth, and laws of physics don't apply to human social relations

Good I checked this out first, before replying to the other things you wrote.We seem to see things differently. Naturally, if you believe karma is a myth then it's best to agree to disagree

You are also seem to be saying that it is karma that countries who try to defend themselves from being oppressed by a superpower with hostile intentions sort of deserve to be invaded? "the invader is not the bad guy"

Might seem that way to you, but it's not what I said

Why not argue that if you invade and oppress weak countries they will seek to defend themselves from you and they should have this right

and anyone who opposes this right is the bad guy?

Of course they have the right to defend themselves, and better do so

Yes, you could could say that

 

[Kooky]

Why don't you listen to the voice of the people of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, etc.?

What was the best chance for Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to avoid being victims of a war of conquest: join NATO or simply hope Russia, a country with a track record of invading weak neighbours on dozens of occasions, decides to allow them to exist?

The Baltic states were in fact so gung-ho about joining NATO and the European Union, and so successful after they did, that they have become the model for European post-Soviet states in this regard.

It is also notable, that the Russian regime at the time either did not seem to mind them joining, or was incapable and so fearful of NATO that they didn't dare object; in either case, when NATO membership of the Baltic states was confirmed, the Putin regime signalled its agreement, and indeed didn't even start to object to this political constellation until after falling out with NATO over Libya and Syria.

I don't think the recent history of Ukraine would have played out they way it did without the political model of the Baltic states so close by, and without the notion that joining Central Europe in the form of NATO and EU wouldn't be immediately objectionable to Russian political sensibilities.

 

[Augustus]

Your interpretation of my words, not mine. Russia creates huge karma, and probably gets it back soon

What do you mean by Russia is not the bad guy for attacking countries who wish to defend themselves from Russian aggression.

Of course they have the right to defend themselves, and better do so

Yes, you could could say that

So Russia is the bad guy for denying them that right?

 

[stvdv]

What do you mean by Russia is not the bad guy

for attacking countries who wish to defend themselves from Russian aggression.

Your line, not mine.
Were you Christian in the past?

I just said "I don't see Russia as the bad guy here"

So Russia is the bad guy for denying them that right?

Your line, not mine

I differentiate between:
1) Putin is bad
2) Putin acts violent

As I said before, you don"t believe in karma, also you are Atheist, so we see things differently. Whats the big deal? I don't try to impose my view on you, but you try to impose your view on me

Ask yourself "why I want to impose my view on him"
Don't you think that's what Putin's issue is here?

 

[Augustus]

Your line, not mine.
Were you Christian in the past?

I just said "I don't see Russia as the bad guy here"

No. I've never been Christian.

Why do you think invading a peaceful neighbour doesn't qualify you as being the bad guy?

Who is the bad guy?

Your line, not mine

I differentiate between:
1) Putin is bad
2) Putin acts violent

As I said before, you don"t believe in karma, also you are Atheist, so we see things differently. Whats the big deal? I don't try to impose my view on you, but you try to impose your view on me

Ask yourself "why I want to impose my view on him"
Don't you think that's what Putin's issue is here?

You are the one who said karma was a fact. I suggested evidence shows very much the opposite.

You can believe in karma if you want, but when you claim it is a fact it is legitimate to question this.

Personally, I don't differentiate between:
1) Person X chose to kill thousands of innocent people purely to aggrandise himself
2) Person X is a bad person.