How Gorbachev was misled over assurances against NATO expansion

[Father Heathen]

What

Okay. If I understood correctly, both Dems and GOP support the NATO. Right?

What's the price of tea in China?

 

[stvdv]

No. I've never been Christian.

Why do you think invading a peaceful neighbour doesn't qualify you as being the bad guy?

Who is the bad guy?

Thank you
I don"t see bad guys, just guys being violent

You are the one who said karma was a fact. I suggested evidence shows very much the opposite.

You can believe in karma if you want, but when you claim it is a fact it is legitimate to question this.

True

Personally, I don't differentiate between:
1) Person X chose to kill thousands of innocent people purely to aggrandise himself
2) Person X is a bad person.

Okay, then I understand. Thank you.

 

[Augustus]

I don"t see bad guys, just guys being violent

Do you see Hitler, Mao or Pol Pot as being bad guys?

 

[Revoltingest]

I don"t see bad guys, just guys being violent

That pretty much defines "bad guys", ie, guys who
intentionally do bad things, eg, bombing hospitals,
bombing apartment buildings, bombing stores,
raping, pillaging, torturing, kidnapping, & all the
while lying about it in order to justify it.
Yeah...they're bad...very bad...downright evil.
May they all die in quick defeat, every last one of'm.

 

[ajay0]

NATO posed no existential threat to USSR / Russia.

Here is what Putin stated...

“… after the US destroyed the INF Treaty, the Pentagon has been openly developing many land-based attack weapons, including ballistic missiles that are capable of hitting targets at a distance of up to 5,500 km. If deployed in Ukraine, such systems will be able to hit targets in Russia’s entire European part. The flying time of Tomahawk cruise missiles to Moscow will be less than 35 minutes; ballistic missiles from Kharkov will take seven to eight minutes; and hypersonic assault weapons, four to five minutes. It is like a knife to the throat. I have no doubt that they hope to carry out these plans, as they did many times in the past, expanding NATO eastward, moving their military infrastructure to Russian borders and fully ignoring our concerns, protests and warnings…"

“I want to say clearly and directly that in the current situation, when our proposals for an equal dialogue on fundamental issues have actually remained unanswered by the United States and NATO, when the level of threats to our country is increasing significantly, Russia has every right to take retaliatory measures to ensure its own security. That is exactly what we will do.”

Can you
imagine France & Italy invading Russia? Absurd.

But U.S.-Nato can be in a position to invade Russia and secure its resources for resource-starved Europe or coerce it to submission. This at least is the thinking of the Russians prompting their war preparations.

But Russia
still harbors designs to expand in to Europe. So a strong &
expanded NATO makes good sense. BTW, Belarus's Prez
recently aired Russia's plans to invade Moldova.

Russia's invasions of Ukraine and Georgia came up only after they expressed willingness to join nato, and Putin saw them as security threats to Russia, especially if wmd targetting russia for pre-emptive strikes are deployed there.

It is quite clear that if US.-Nato had honored its promises to Gorbachev and Russia, none of these wars would have happened, and the Russians would have contributed to the economic development of Europe by providing vital energy resources.

 

[ajay0]

Russia is dangerous. It long has been. Just ask Finland
& the countries it conquered, & would've conquered if
Hitler hadn't dishonored their agreement to divide up
Europe for themselves.

This is the U.S.S.R under the Georgian Stalin. Not the present Russia which has democratic systems, and needs space and time without external threats ( fuel for hyper-nationalist propaganda and dictatorships) to develop these democractic institutions.

 

[ajay0]

If America wanted to go to war with Russia right now, it wouldn't even be a contest. Russia's economy is smaller than Canada's. It can't sustain a long term conflict. So why hasn't America gone to war with Russia, now when Russia is at its weakest.

You never answer this question for some reason.

Russia has the world's largest nuclear arsenal targeting the U.S, Europe and NATO states. Their military power is quite formidable and is capable of wiping out the U.S.-Nato in a worse case scenario. It is mutually assured destruction.

This is why channels for diplomatic talks should be maintained instead of exacerbating emotions by threats and emotive theatrical displays.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

This is the U.S.S.R under the Georgian Stalin. Not the present Russia which has democratic systems

This is a joke, right?

 

[Augustus]

This is a joke, right?

Unfortunately not.

There will always be a section of society that sees everything as being the fault of evil America and everyone else as poor victims who always act in good faith until the devil makes them do mean things against their pure and humble nature.

Doesn't matter if it's Mao, Putin, Stalin, bin Laden or whoever "the devil made them do it" and America is much worse anyway...

Everyone would be peaceful and we'd be living in castles on the moon if it wasn't for those damned Yanks...

 

[ajay0]

This is a joke, right?

See, America had its Nixon's and Trumps too. No democracy is perfect and it needs its time to evolve in capacities. And so does the russians. A russian journalist and media agency won last years Nobel peace for prize, which shows that they are on the right path , though slow at present.

Also it is my belief that the U.S. is more of a plutocracy than democracy, considering the way they have taken down democracies in south america in favor of dictatorship that support american corporate interests.

A fine example is the U.S. overthrow of Guatemala's democratically elected president Jacobo Arbenz in favor of the dictatorship of Carlos Armas who was favorably disposed to Western corporate interests.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

See, America had its Nixon's and Trumps too.

Both of whom were impeached.



Tell me, how many of their political opponents did they poison? How many did they put in prison?

In Russia, the answer is all of them.

Trump certainly tried to be like his hero Putin. The difference is, off course, that in the US you then just bang your head against the wall erected by constitutional democracy. The result is impeachment and being charged with insurrection.

If in Russia you even try to say the word "impeachement", the FSB will be dragging your a$$ out of whatever room you are in by the time you get to "p", never to be heared from you again... rotting away in some prison in Siberia or worse....

A russian journalist and media agency won last years Nobel peace for prize, which shows that they are on the right path , though slow at present.

Go look up where that journalist and media agency are at today. Then tell me again they are on the "right path".

 

[Revoltingest]

Here is what Putin stated...

“… after the US destroyed the INF Treaty, the Pentagon has been openly developing many land-based attack weapons, including ballistic missiles that are capable of hitting targets at a distance of up to 5,500 km. If deployed in Ukraine, such systems will be able to hit targets in Russia’s entire European part. The flying time of Tomahawk cruise missiles to Moscow will be less than 35 minutes; ballistic missiles from Kharkov will take seven to eight minutes; and hypersonic assault weapons, four to five minutes. It is like a knife to the throat. I have no doubt that they hope to carry out these plans, as they did many times in the past, expanding NATO eastward, moving their military infrastructure to Russian borders and fully ignoring our concerns, protests and warnings…"

“I want to say clearly and directly that in the current situation, when our proposals for an equal dialogue on fundamental issues have actually remained unanswered by the United States and NATO, when the level of threats to our country is increasing significantly, Russia has every right to take retaliatory measures to ensure its own security. That is exactly what we will do.”



But U.S.-Nato can be in a position to invade Russia and secure its resources for resource-starved Europe or coerce it to submission. This at least is the thinking of the Russians prompting their war preparations.





Russia's invasions of Ukraine and Georgia came up only after they expressed willingness to join nato, and Putin saw them as security threats to Russia, especially if wmd targetting russia for pre-emptive strikes are deployed there.

It is quite clear that if US.-Nato had honored its promises to Gorbachev and Russia, none of these wars would have happened, and the Russians would have contributed to the economic development of Europe by providing vital energy resources.

What Putin says is largely irrelevant. Remember....he's
the one who says there is no war at all. NATO has
never invaded Russia, & couldn't because of Russia's
thousand of nukes.

 

[Revoltingest]

This is the U.S.S.R under the Georgian Stalin. Not the present Russia which has democratic systems, and needs space and time without external threats ( fuel for hyper-nationalist propaganda and dictatorships) to develop these democractic institutions.

Russia is not democratic at all. Elections are a
show, with Putin always winning. Opposition
to him can quickly land one in prison.

 

[Revoltingest]

This pretty much sums up Putin....

 

[Wandering Monk]

Russia has the world's largest nuclear arsenal targeting the U.S, Europe and NATO states. Their military power is quite formidable and is capable of wiping out the U.S.-Nato in a worse case scenario. It is mutually assured destruction.

This is why channels for diplomatic talks should be maintained instead of exacerbating emotions by threats and emotive theatrical displays.

Thank you, but I was waiting for him to say it and recognize that Russia is only a player because they can end civilization. Not a very redeeming quality.