How in the world can ANYBODY think the Jews and Christians have the same god, that Jesus is messiah?

[rosends]

No, that is a truth. Adam had sex with his wife, and she gave birth to Cain. She also gave birth to Able.
It has been proven in our time, a women can be with two children by two different men at the same time.

You should read the scrolls. In the book it reads, Eve said, "I have gotten a man from the Lord." In the scrolls she says, "I have goten a man fom the angel of the Lord, Sammual." The scrolls have to be taken over any book written from them. The two should match...they do not. It is the book that has the lie, not the scrolls.

again, you don't tell me which "Scrolls" you are talking about. Not the DSS, which doesn't have that passage in it. You have had this same discussion elsewhere and you didn't provide any specific text there, either.

 

[Domenic]

again, you don't tell me which "Scrolls" you are talking about. Not the DSS, which doesn't have that passage in it. You have had this same discussion elsewhere and you didn't provide any specific text there, either.

This was posted some three years ago. You can get a copy of the dead sea scrolls in English. These scrolls match the scrolls used when Jesus was on earth.
It's been out for a while. I read one entitled, "The Dead Sea Scrolls in English, by G. Vermes. It was a Penguin book. So it should be relatively easy to find. Here are some excepts and observations I made while reading it.
The subject relatively recently has become a complex one. The Jews of the 1st century knew more about him BEFORE he came than those Jews we have today will admit. Apparently God gave them revelations about Jesus just before he appeared. Check out online "The Messiah Stone". There are also writings in the Dead Sea Scrolls that are most revealing about the coming Messiah (by 'coming' I mean he was yet to appear, the documents said the be dating in the 1st century BC).

It's amazing that the entire Jewish tradition of modern times has no idea these things were known..

From "The Dead Sea Scrolls in English" by G. Vermes
excerpts: 40. The heavenly Prince Melchizedek
(11Q Melch)- scroll designation

A striking 1st century BC document, composed of thirteen fragments from cave centered on the mysterious figure of Melchizedek
and it will be proclaimed at] the end of days concerning the captives as [He said, "To proclaim liberty to the captives (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:18). It's interpretation is that He will assign them to the Sons of Heaven and to the inheritance of Melchizedek; for He will cast their lot]amid the portions of Melchizedek, who will return them there and will proclaim to them liberty, forgiving them the wrong-doings of all their iniquities.

23. The Blessings of Jacob
(4QPBless)

This may be from the first half of the 1st century BC.
Whenever Israel rules there shall not fail to be a descendant of David upon the throne. For the ruler's staff is the Covenant of kingship, and the clans of Israel are the feet, until the Messiah of Righteousness comes, the Branch of David. For to him and to his seed was granted the Covenant of kingship over his people for everlasting generations.
It was a teaching of the events in Eden in Jesus day with Israel. The tribe of Judah changed those events, to a eating a fruit.

There is only one tribe known as Jews...the tribe of Judah. It was the tribe of Judah that rejected Jesus, and everything he said. The other Eleven did not reject Jesus. It is these other eleven that will return to the land of Israel. When the tribe of Judah returned to Israel in 1948, that did not
fulfill the prophecy of Gods people returning to the promised land.

THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL
REUBEN - SIMEON - LEVI - JUDAH
DAN - NAPHTALI * GAD - ASHER
ISSACHAR - ZEBULUN - JOSEPH - BENJAMIN

 

[rosends]

This was posted some three years ago. You can get a copy of the dead sea scrolls in English. These scrolls match the scrolls used when Jesus was on earth.
It's been out for a while. I read one entitled, "The Dead Sea Scrolls in English, by G. Vermes. It was a Penguin book. So it should be relatively easy to find. Here are some excepts and observations I made while reading it.
The subject relatively recently has become a complex one. The Jews of the 1st century knew more about him BEFORE he came than those Jews we have today will admit. Apparently God gave them revelations about Jesus just before he appeared. Check out online "The Messiah Stone". There are also writings in the Dead Sea Scrolls that are most revealing about the coming Messiah (by 'coming' I mean he was yet to appear, the documents said the be dating in the 1st century BC).

It's amazing that the entire Jewish tradition of modern times has no idea these things were known..

From "The Dead Sea Scrolls in English" by G. Vermes
excerpts: 40. The heavenly Prince Melchizedek
(11Q Melch)- scroll designation

A striking 1st century BC document, composed of thirteen fragments from cave centered on the mysterious figure of Melchizedek
and it will be proclaimed at] the end of days concerning the captives as [He said, "To proclaim liberty to the captives (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:18). It's interpretation is that He will assign them to the Sons of Heaven and to the inheritance of Melchizedek; for He will cast their lot]amid the portions of Melchizedek, who will return them there and will proclaim to them liberty, forgiving them the wrong-doings of all their iniquities.

23. The Blessings of Jacob
(4QPBless)

This may be from the first half of the 1st century BC.
Whenever Israel rules there shall not fail to be a descendant of David upon the throne. For the ruler's staff is the Covenant of kingship, and the clans of Israel are the feet, until the Messiah of Righteousness comes, the Branch of David. For to him and to his seed was granted the Covenant of kingship over his people for everlasting generations.
It was a teaching of the events in Eden in Jesus day with Israel. The tribe of Judah changed those events, to a eating a fruit.

There is only one tribe known as Jews...the tribe of Judah. It was the tribe of Judah that rejected Jesus, and everything he said. The other Eleven did not reject Jesus. It is these other eleven that will return to the land of Israel. When the tribe of Judah returned to Israel in 1948, that did not
fulfill the prophecy of Gods people returning to the promised land.

THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL
REUBEN - SIMEON - LEVI - JUDAH
DAN - NAPHTALI * GAD - ASHER
ISSACHAR - ZEBULUN - JOSEPH - BENJAMIN

The DSS are available in English online. The section you refer to is not part of the fragments found.

http://www.drbill.net/dead_sea_scrolls/Griffin, The Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls--Hebrew & English Text Reconstructions.pdf

So that isn't the set of scrolls you are talking about.

You mention "the scrolls used when Jesus was on earth." Can you show me some of these online that reflect a different reading of Gen 4:1?

--------edit--------------
I'm sure you have read this Was Cain Fathered by the Devil? No, Wait — Extraterrestrials | PaleoBabble website which points out that no source has what you claim. Even the Targum Jonathan ( חומש מקראות גדולות בראשית - (page 81 of 700) )doesn't mention what you claim. In the Aramaic, no mention is made of the Devil or Samael. If anything, the claim is that "I have acquired (to/for) a man, the angel of the Lord" kaniti legavra yat mal'acha dehashem

 

[Domenic]

The DSS are available in English online. The section you refer to is not part of the fragments found.

http://www.drbill.net/dead_sea_scrolls/Griffin, The Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls--Hebrew & English Text Reconstructions.pdf

So that isn't the set of scrolls you are talking about.

You mention "the scrolls used when Jesus was on earth." Can you show me some of these online that reflect a different reading of Gen 4:1?

--------edit--------------
I'm sure you have read this Was Cain Fathered by the Devil? No, Wait — Extraterrestrials | PaleoBabble website which points out that no source has what you claim. Even the Targum Jonathan ( חומש מקראות גדולות בראשית - (page 81 of 700) )doesn't mention what you claim. In the Aramaic, no mention is made of the Devil or Samael. If anything, the claim is that "I have acquired (to/for) a man, the angel of the Lord" kaniti legavra yat mal'acha dehashem

They are in the Dead Sea Scrolls. When these were found, they translated Genesis first. This translation was later pulled because it went aganst the Bible. But, there is a copy today in English.

The truth of what took place in the Garden was known in the 1400's.
Genesis 3:15 was known to have one word in Greek, The word seed. In Greek it translates into SPERM, also, OFFSPRING. This together with God talking to the serpent about what he did with his SPERM, and Cain, and Able not being listed in Genesis 5 as children of Adam. (because Abel was murdered...Seth means=replacement.) so Seth is listed as Adams first child. Chain is not listed because he was not Adams child.
Animals always aged, and died. After Adam was created, God commanded the angels to serve him. Many of these refused. God cast them down in a form lower than man...they were upright, and man like, but more on the animal side. The sperm from the serpent mixed with human is what makes man die. Adam, and Eve never died from this sin. They died from a judgment from God. After Cain was born, Adam named the women Eve, which means, "Giver of life." life was given without Adams seed.
This was the teaching in Jesus day, and also in the 1400's. It has been put aside to hide the truth.
Genesis 3:15 tels the seed(Messiah would be killed by Satan, but the death would not last,(bruse in the heel) and that the seed, Massiah would kill Satan, and it would be a lasting deah. (Bruse in the head,)

I know the Jews do not think the Messiah has yet come. I understand people follow their teachings. I have always warned Christians, test what your religion teaches. All religions should do the same. When Jesus was on earth he did not change the Hebrew law, just those things made up by the people.
Example: A man could walk around his house 3 times, and he could
divorce his wife. Jesus told them, It has been allowed, but never was the law.
All religions teach (excpt Jews) believe Jesus died for our sins. I have alway pointed to the scriptures, and their meaning. "If Jesus died for our sins, we would not have to ask God to forgive us every time we sinned." Jesus died to remove just one sin (Sin means falling short of the mark.) The mixed seed we all have within us.
I have often asked Christians, "Do you know why Jesus had to be dead for three days?" Religions don't teach why."
Jesus was a perfect man. He had within him the seed of an unborn perfect human race. Here is a medical fact. After a man dies, it takes up to three days for his seed to die. That perfect unborn race was given for this one.

 

[catch22]

So... I disagree with rosends about a lot of things, but I dunno WHAT this guy is talking about.

*boggle*

 

[RabbiO]

They are in the Dead Sea Scrolls. When these were found, they translated Genesis first. This translation was later pulled because it went aganst the Bible. But, there is a copy today in English.

The truth of what took place in the Garden was known in the 1400's.
Genesis 3:15 was known to have one word in Greek, The word seed. In Greek it translates into SPERM, also, OFFSPRING. This together with God talking to the serpent about what he did with his SPERM, and Cain, and Able not being listed in Genesis 5 as children of Adam. (because Abel was murdered...Seth means=replacement.) so Seth is listed as Adams first child. Chain is not listed because he was not Adams child..

OK, cite your sources for this supposed cover up.

Direct us to this supposed translation still available somewhere in English.

Cite your sources for there being a Greek word in Genesis. Direct us to this supposed knowledge in the 1400s.

These are simple requests, Mr. Pappalardo.

There's really no point in trying to have any conversation until you do so. All we have to this point are your unsubstantiated allegations.

Depending upon when you provide the material, you may have to wait for a response - at least from rosends and me. Shabbat approaches and neither he nor I post on Shabbat.

 

[Domenic]

OK, cite your sources for this supposed cover up.

Direct us to this supposed translation still available somewhere in English.

Cite your sources for there being a Greek word in Genesis. Direct us to this supposed knowledge in the 1400s.

These are simple requests, Mr. Pappalardo.

There's really no point in trying to have any conversation until you do so. All we have to this point are your unsubstantiated allegations.

Depending upon when you provide the material, you may have to wait for a response - at least from rosends and me. Shabbat approaches and neither he nor I post on Shabbat.

I have been studying the scriptures for over fifty years. I have a family, I am a writer, and have many things to do daily. I do not have the time to go back, and dig up everything I have learned. You are on this forum. you hace a computer, hit a few keys, and if you have an interset in truth, look for it. I don't bother helping those who just want to sit back, and ask others to do all the work. I already know what I know, if you want truth seek it.

 

[Domenic]

So... I disagree with rosends about a lot of things, but I dunno WHAT this guy is talking about.

*boggle*

Let me tell you what this guy is talking about: TRUTH. What are the scriptures talking about? Is religion teaching truth?

Example. "If you are good you go to Heaven. if you are bad, to a Hell of fire." Is that true?

God never puts something into motion that fails. He created man to never die, live on the earth, and care for it. Did that plan not work? Did God have to say, "Ah heck, that didn't work, so I guess I'll have people die, some come to Heaven, and the rest I will burn forever."

Gods plan was to be complete in 7,000 years. It has not yet been 6,000 years. Have you rad the scripture, "The meek will inherit the earth, and reside on it forever never knowing sickness or death."
If all people are in Heaven, or a hell of fire, who are these meek?
As to a Hell of Fire: Here is the condition of the dead, one of many scriptures on the condition of the dead: Ec 9:5
This scripture says, "the dead are asleep, and they are conscious of nothing at all." Does that sound like a blace of fire?
If religions say people are going to Heaven, or a hell of fire, that is a lie.

Are you still boggled?

 

[RabbiO]

I have been studying the scriptures for over fifty years. I have a family, I am a writer, and have many things to do daily. I do not have the time to go back, and dig up everything I have learned. You are on this forum. you hace a computer, hit a few keys, and if you have an interset in truth, look for it. I don't bother helping those who just want to sit back, and ask others to do all the work. I already know what I know, if you want truth seek it.

So, what you're saying is that no one else on this forum works, has a family, has a multitude of daily responsibilities, is pressed for time?

This isn't The X-Files. It doesn't fly just to say, "The truth is out there."

If you're unwilling to provide any corroboration for your allegations, for this forum member, at least, you have zero credibility.

 

[rosends]

They are in the Dead Sea Scrolls. When these were found, they translated Genesis first. This translation was later pulled because it went aganst the Bible. But, there is a copy today in English.

The truth of what took place in the Garden was known in the 1400's.
Genesis 3:15 was known to have one word in Greek, The word seed. In Greek it translates into SPERM, also, OFFSPRING. This together with God talking to the serpent about what he did with his SPERM, and Cain, and Able not being listed in Genesis 5 as children of Adam. (because Abel was murdered...Seth means=replacement.) so Seth is listed as Adams first child. Chain is not listed because he was not Adams child.

So you are claiming that there was a section of the DSS translated and then hidden? But you can't point to any proof. So you are asserting that a document exists which proves that the current text is wrong, but you can't actually show it.

Then you claim something about a Hebrew text being in Greek, even though it isn't. Do you have any proof for this alternate text? No? OK. So noted.

 

[Domenic]

So you are claiming that there was a section of the DSS translated and then hidden? But you can't point to any proof. So you are asserting that a document exists which proves that the current text is wrong, but you can't actually show it.

Then you claim something about a Hebrew text being in Greek, even though it isn't. Do you have any proof for this alternate text? No? OK. So noted.

You are free to believe, and follow what you want.

 

[Harmonious]

Inference or not, 18 starts with 3 men, 19 starts with 2, and the only one who departs is YHVH and we see Abraham standing before Him and otherwise interacting with him (He appears, He speaks, "they did eat," etc). This isn't so much inference as, honestly, just understanding what the author was conveying.

I don't know if it helps, but I'll tell you what common Jewish ideology says about these passages.

God departed before the meal. The three angels were there; one had the job of telling Sarah that she was going to give birth, despite the fact that she was 90. Once it did its job, it went home.

The other two had other purposes. One was to heal Abraham from the pain of his circumcision and to ultimately protect Lot and his family, and the other was to destroy Sodom, Amorah, and two other cities that were sisters in sin with them.

 

[Harmonious]

Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?”
And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.” So the Lord went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.

Regardless, I guess Abraham did something wrong when he served milk with meat for the meal?

"It" refers to Sodom. Abraham was asking God not to be angry for asking for too much.

 

[Harmonious]

After all, at least let us say Abraham ate with God.

God was present, but didn't eat, because God isn't physical. Angels can be.

 

[Harmonious]

I'm not a Jew. I use both Hebrew, and Greek scriptures.


Well, the Jews may not accept it, but the fact is, God is talking to something called a serpent in Genesis 3:15. It's not Adam, or Eve, and there is no one else there in the Garden.

So, God spoke to the serpent. Not Satan.

 

[Harmonious]

Well as a Jew, how would you explain Genesis 3:15 in the Hebrew scriptures...it should be a part of what Jews believe.

It's a fact that most humans are uncomfortable around snakes. That is what it says in Genesis 3:15, and that is what the belief is.

 

[Harmonious]

Not true. In the scrolls the word seed is written in GREEK. You can change it in a book, but you can't change the scrolls.

The word is Hebrew. I'm not sure about your sudden insistence on any word in Genesis being in Greek. I get that this is your belief, but I don't get why it is so important to you.

You reject There is a Satan, as you reject Jesus.

We reject the idea that Satan is a force against God. We (at least the Jews who are debating you) believe that Satan is very much a faithful servant of God and has a very different role in the universe than the Christian portrayal of Satan.

The fact that we reject YOUR concept of Satan the way we reject Jesus is a given.

 

[Harmonious]

No, that is a truth. Adam had sex with his wife, and she gave birth to Cain. She also gave birth to Able.
It has been proven in our time, a women can be with two children by two different men at the same time.

Okay. But why should we believe that there was another man involved? Because your belief system says there was?

 

[Domenic]

Okay. But why should we believe that there was another man involved? Because your belief system says there was?

These questions can be answered very easy...if you are clear about what text you are using. Are you reasoning from the Masoretec text, or the Tanakn which was writer some time after the Masoretec text? And please explain why the two are not the same?

I did not say there was a second man in the garden. Eve had sex with something besides Adam. And yes, the word seed is in the Greek.

 

[Harmonious]

These questions can be answered very easy...if you are clear about what text you are using. Are you reasoning from the Masoretec text, or the Tanakn which was writer some time after the Masoretec text? And please explain why the two are not the same?

Wow, are you confused. Tanach is an acronym for Torah (the Pentateuch), Nevi'im (the Prophets), and Ketuvim (the Hagiographa).

The Masora refers to which version of the text is the true one.

There might be many translations or interpretations, but Tanach, or you might refer to them as "Old Testament" (though most Jews never will) refer to the same books.

In any event... Which are you referring to as "not the same"? Your belief system and mine are different, if that's the question.

I did not say there was a second man in the garden. Eve had sex with something besides Adam.

Says who?

And yes, the word seed is in the Greek.

Zera is Hebrew. If it is the same in Greek, then it's the same. But Zera, Zayin, Resh, Ayin, is Hebrew.