How is 'not accepting the act' a true acceptance of homosexuality?

[loverofhumanity]

And that's on ya'll. But claiming that any kind of adoption other than what you approve of is "harmful" (while also ignoring harm from outlets you do approve of) is troublesome.

The Baha’i Faith does not speak for humanity only for Baha’is.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

So how, then, can you say that homosexuals who adopt are being harmful? How can you speak for the various "harms" that you claim adoption inflicts? These are things you've said in this thread, after all, and given the context of your statements they can't be rationally isolated to bahais only.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

There is a major difference between accepting homosexuality and treating homosexuals with respect and courtesy. All people should be treated as equals but not everyone must accept homosexuality as part of their personal moral code.

Just like the world is not obligated to accept my beliefs and moral code so I too am not obligated to accept theirs.

And we're not obligated to remain silent as you continue to expound centuries old prejudice without basis.

To accuse us of intolerance because we don’t accept homosexuality is the same as us accusing the world of intolerance for not joining our religion.

Nope; false equivalence. Accusing you of intolerance because you don't accept homosexuality is the same as accusing Iran of religious intolerance because of the fact it refuses your faith legal recognition or rights of any kind.

Where is my right to freedom of conscience and belief being respected?

It's being respected in the fact you're allowed to air those views publicly without being censored or banned. What neither of these rights are is the right to freedom from having your beliefs challenged.

So we need to both accept each other’s right to have our own beliefs without being expected to change or being accused of intolerance if we don’t accept their views.

Being gay isn't a belief though and no we don't need to accept each other's rights to their own beliefs where said beliefs will or can be forced on others. I'm well aware that Bahais are not currently doing this but it's fair to say you (as a group) would do so given the opportunity.

I think that amounts to bullying.

Being challenged on irrational prejudice is not bullying. If your beliefs cannot stand up to robust rational criticism then perhaps it's time for you to re-examine those beliefs.

Let’s just each peacefully walk the path of our choosing with respect for each other not demeaning comments attempting to bully us into changing our stance.

Well you can take the first step here by no longer passively-aggressively insisting that homosexuality is wrong because it's not normal or natural.

You are who you are and we are who we are. Just accept that.

Irony of ironies because LGBT people have been saying exactly this for decades. The belief that homosexuality is unnatural or not normal is frequently used as a justification for restricting LGBT rights as well as erasing them from social recognition beyond displays of homophobia.

I think the important thing here is not whether we disagree or not as we all have different understandings and views but that we all treat each other well.

Then what did you bring up the 'One Supreme Reality disagrees with you' thing with Frank for if it doesn't matter?

We don’t interfere. But it’s forbidden to Baha’is.

You don't interfere now but that is the end goal of Bahaism, isn't it? To establish a theocratic world order using your beliefs as guidelines.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I never want anyone to be mistreated.

That is the end result of the way your faith views homosexuality so good luck reconciling this statement with that fact.

We are only discussing the morality of the issue. All people must be treated with love and respect including homosexuals.

You can't respect or love people if you view who they are as being immoral or sinful.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So how, then, can you say that homosexuals who adopt are being harmful? How can you speak for the various "harms" that you claim adoption inflicts? These are things you've said in this thread, after all, and given the context of your statements they can't be rationally isolated to bahais only.

The Baha’i laws, principles and teachings apply only to Baha’is.

Of course our views cross paths with others but that’s to be expected as we are a religion with beliefs.

For Baha’is the most natural and healthy and ideal way of upbringing children is through a loving married man and woman.

Only marriage between a man and a woman will ever be permitted as its a hard coded law in our Most Holy Book.

It is a religious law and should be viewed as our right to freedom of belief. We don’t have to accept homosexuality just like homosexuals don’t have to accept the Baha’i Faith.

We believe homosexuality and same sex marriage are immoral and harmful, others believe they are ok. That’s freedom of belief.

All we can do is each go our own way and walk the path of our choosing.

Also.... I think it’s harmful to deprive a child of their birthright.

Every child under has the right to a mother and a father and taking that right away is harmful by denying them either a mother or a father.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That is the end result of the way your faith views homosexuality so good luck reconciling this statement with that fact.




You can't respect or love people if you view who they are as being immoral or sinful.

We love the people not the act.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

The Baha’i laws, principles and teachings apply only to Baha’is.

Of course our views cross paths with others but that’s to be expected as we are a religion with beliefs.

For Baha’is the most natural and healthy and ideal way of upbringing children is through a loving married man and woman.

Only marriage between a man and a woman will ever be permitted as its a hard coded law in our Most Holy Book.

It is a religious law and should be viewed as our right to freedom of belief. We don’t have to accept homosexuality just like homosexuals don’t have to accept the Baha’i Faith.

We believe homosexuality and same sex marriage are immoral and harmful, others believe they are ok. That’s freedom of belief.

All we can do is each go our own way and walk the path of our choosing.

Also.... I think it’s harmful to deprive a child of their birthright.

Every child under has the right to a mother and a father and taking that right away is harmful by denying them either a mother or a father.

So in short you can't rationally speak on the "harms" of homosexuality and adoption. You're only able to crutch yourself up on your beliefs and opinions. Got it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And we're not obligated to remain silent as you continue to expound centuries old prejudice without basis.




Nope; false equivalence. Accusing you of intolerance because you don't accept homosexuality is the same as accusing Iran of religious intolerance because of the fact it refuses your faith legal recognition or rights of any kind.




It's being respected in the fact you're allowed to air those views publicly without being censored or banned. What neither of these rights are is the right to freedom from having your beliefs challenged.




Being gay isn't a belief though and no we don't need to accept each other's rights to their own beliefs where said beliefs will or can be forced on others. I'm well aware that Bahais are not currently doing this but it's fair to say you (as a group) would do so given the opportunity.




Being challenged on irrational prejudice is not bullying. If your beliefs cannot stand up to robust rational criticism then perhaps it's time for you to re-examine those beliefs.




Well you can take the first step here by no longer passively-aggressively insisting that homosexuality is wrong because it's not normal or natural.




Irony of ironies because LGBT people have been saying exactly this for decades. The belief that homosexuality is unnatural or not normal is frequently used as a justification for restricting LGBT rights as well as erasing them from social recognition beyond displays of homophobia.




Then what did you bring up the 'One Supreme Reality disagrees with you' thing with Frank for if it doesn't matter?




You don't interfere now but that is the end goal of Bahaism, isn't it? To establish a theocratic world order using your beliefs as guidelines.

Regardless of our different views on the topic still the main thing is that we are all human. It doesn’t matter if people are different we still must love everyone.

But who knows what’s really best for us? Who makes the call of what’s right and wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral?

What do we follow? Our passions? Our feelings? Our hearts? Our conscience? Our beliefs?

Any person that says they know for sure the rightness or wrongness or morality or immorality of anything are proclaiming themselves to be infallible and a Prophet because it is accepted that humans do err so how can anyone state with absolutel certainty that same sex marriage and homosexuality are good and moral things without claiming infallibility meaning you can’t be wrong? You couldn’t possibly have made an error of judgement as a human being? That’s what we also hear from religious fanatics.

So where do we turn to for reality and truth?

If we admit with honesty that we do err and make mistakes then we can’t manintain a fanatical assertion of correctness with regards to this issue.

As a Baha’i I follow the laws and teachings of Baha’u’llah. I belive He is All Knowing and His Knowledge is infallible so when He says homosexuality is immoral and forbids it, time will vindicate this truth.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So in short you can't rationally speak on the "harms" of homosexuality and adoption. You're only able to crutch yourself up on your beliefs and opinions. Got it.

Human knowledge is unreliable. The human intellect, reason, logic, rationality are all imperfect. Human beings do not possess infallible knowledge, just opinions.

We Baha’is too are just ordinary people and are imperfect.

But we believe Baha’u’llah is All Knowing and infallible and He has, in His wisdom prescribed matrimony only between a man and a woman and forbidden any other sexual relationship outside it including same sex marriage and homosexuality.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So in short you can't rationally speak on the "harms" of homosexuality and adoption. You're only able to crutch yourself up on your beliefs and opinions. Got it.

When you go to a doctor you trust and place faith in him that he will cure you. Or you can remain ill not believing in the doctor.

Baha’u’llah we believe is the Physician for humanity’s ills for this age and we trust in Him as His Life and Teachings have proven to us He was sent by God and is possessed of infallible knowledge.

It’s not blind trust. I think we certainly know much more about Him than people know about their doctor.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Human knowledge is unreliable. The human intellect, reason, logic, rationality are all imperfect. Human beings do not possess infallible knowledge, just opinions.

Hogwash. The sun will rise tomorrow, April 3rd. Watch that become true, because of reliable, infallible knowledge.

But we believe Baha’u’llah is All Knowing and infallible

And do you believe the bahaullah to be a god?

When you go to a doctor you trust and place faith in him that he will cure you.

No, I don't. I go to a doctor because I know that they are trained and knowledgeable in disease and illness. There's no "faith" about it - also that's a different kind of faith than the religious faith that you're trying to compare it to.

Baha’u’llah we believe is the Physician for humanity’s ills

So you are trying to apply it to everyone, even non-bahais? That didn't take long.

It’s not blind trust. I think we certainly know much more about Him than people know about their doctor.

How can you, when you've never even met the man.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hogwash. The sun will rise tomorrow, April 3rd. Watch that become true, because of reliable, infallible knowledge.


And do you believe the bahaullah to be a god?


No, I don't. I go to a doctor because I know that they are trained and knowledgeable in disease and illness. There's no "faith" about it - also that's a different kind of faith than the religious faith that you're trying to compare it to.


So you are trying to apply it to everyone, even non-bahais? That didn't take long.


How can you, when you've never even met the man.

Human knowledge is not infallible.

That is why we follow the Manifestation of God to get truth because He is infallible.

Only God, a Perfect Mind can tell us the truth about anything and He has. We know Who Baha’u’llah is because we have investigated His claims and found them to be true.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Human knowledge is not infallible.

So you're suggesting that the sun might not rise tomorrow? Sure buddy...

That is why we follow the Manifestation of God to get because He is infallible.

I don't need a manifestation of any god to tell me the sun will rise, fire is hot, water is wet, rocks are hard, etc.

Only God, a Perfect Mind can tell us the truth about anything and He has.

Ya caught me. I'm totally lying about the sun rising tomorrow. It's actually going to be Scrambles the Death-Dealer, the Cosmic Chicken that will end all days.

We know Who Baha’u’llah is because we have investigated His claims and found them to be true.

Then you know his claims. Maybe. You've never met bahaullah, so you cannot possibly know him or who he is.

 

[LuisDantas]

@loverofhumanity , do you see how one might find it dangerous to trust the judgement of Baha'u'llah over one's own?

 

[loverofhumanity]

So you're suggesting that the sun might not rise tomorrow? Sure buddy...


I don't need a manifestation of any god to tell me the sun will rise, fire is hot, water is wet, rocks are hard, etc.


Ya caught me. I'm totally lying about the sun rising tomorrow. It's actually going to be Scrambles the Death-Dealer, the Cosmic Chicken that will end all days.


Then you know his claims. Maybe. You've never met bahaullah, so you cannot possibly know him or who he is.

That’s your right to believe or disbelieve whatever you wish.

 

[loverofhumanity]

@loverofhumanity , do you see how one might find it dangerous to trust the judgement of Baha'u'llah over one's own?

I can understand how a person who is unaware of Baha’u’llah’s Station might think that but to those of us who know Who He actually is there remains no doubt whatsoever.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So you're suggesting that the sun might not rise tomorrow? Sure buddy...


I don't need a manifestation of any god to tell me the sun will rise, fire is hot, water is wet, rocks are hard, etc.


Ya caught me. I'm totally lying about the sun rising tomorrow. It's actually going to be Scrambles the Death-Dealer, the Cosmic Chicken that will end all days.


Then you know his claims. Maybe. You've never met bahaullah, so you cannot possibly know him or who he is.

The sun will rise tomorrow as surely as Baha’u’llah is the Promised One of all Faiths.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

The sun will rise tomorrow as surely as Baha’u’llah is the Promised One of all Faiths.

So you're then saying that the sun won't rise tomorrow. Because the bahaullah is not the promised one of all faiths. You're free to hold your opinion on that, of course, but your opinion is factually wrong.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So you're then saying that the sun won't rise tomorrow. Because the bahaullah is not the promised one of all faiths. You're free to hold your opinion on that, of course, but your opinion is factually wrong.

I welcome your views and criticisms as it only causes me to realise how lucky I am to recognise Who Baha’u’llah is.

I too at first was like you and insisted that this was all false until one day I fully investigated this Faith.

I was close to death 6 times from suicide attempts and finally I found Baha’u’llah. I preferred death to not finding truth and so to me it was the real thing or I didn’t want to stay here.

After 6 courses of electric shock treatment I came across the Writings of Baha’u’llah and finally found inner peace, contentment and truth that had evaded me for so long.

If you don’t hunger for truth you’ll never know it even if it’s right in front of you.

Truth is as a poison to the ego. But when we forego attachment to our selves and our own views and thoughts and truly open our minds, then the truth becomes as clear as the sun.

With our eyes we can see the physical sun but we need spiritual insight to see the Spiritual Suns.

My investigation into Who Baha’u’llah is was based upon a search for truth that involved putting my life on the line to find it.

It’s a very previous gift to know Who He is. Most have deprived themselves because their own minds entrap them.

I hope one day you can overcome the trappings of your own mind and see the truth clearly.

Even meaningless banter can eventually lead one to the truth.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Your personal story doesn't change the fact that the bahaullah is not a "promised one" in any religion but your own.