how is this a humble stance?

[waitasec]

Again... I’m not seeing any sense in what you are saying. Not any. None. If you are going to call one thing insignificant, then you may as well call everything insignificant because so many things depend on so many other things at different times for different reasons.

in our ecosystem, this little tiny blue planet of ours...we are significant to each other...i think you and i can agree to that...
but my question is, how are we significant to the black hole that is sitting in the middle of our galaxy...how are we significant...
look at the above footage of the tsunami...were peoples lives significant and being considered...? no

To restate -- for you to say that a bee is significant and the earth is not when the bee cannot even survive without earth makes absolutely no sense to me at all what -- so -- ever. You can see the importance of a bee, but can’t see the importance of earth? Wow. Your resources come from earth yet somehow you find earth insignificant... because of black holes no less. Well, by your theory something bigger or more important can make black holes insignificant as well. It’s like a domino effect of something being insignificant because something else is (in your eyes) more significant. By your theory, everything can be insignificant because there could always be something bigger.

our eco system is not significant to the neighboring galaxy...
however a bee is a part of our ecosystem

Bottom line, Waitasec... thank goodness you don’t decide what is or isn’t insignificant because sooner or later, everything would be deemed completely useless.

you're reading into what i'm saying.
we are significant to each other because we are all the same

Just because you can’t see the value in something that is so obviously significant doesn’t invalidate the significance.

what is it that is so significant?

Obviously earth is the way it is just as other celestial bodies are the way they are for a reason. There’s a reason we inhabit earth and not Saturn or any other planet in our solar system.

and that way of thinking doesn't require a sense of hubris...
i'm beginning to think you haven't even looked at the pictures or the movies presented in this thread to give you an idea of how insignificant we are.

There’s clearly a reason for things to be the way they are. I don’t pretend to know there’s a reason for it all, I know there is a reason for it all, even if that reason is simply because the Creator created it just because He simply wanted to.

and you know this how?

What I don’t know, however, is the specific reason for all things. The Creator knows that; we don’t.

my question to you would be, how can one even fathom understanding a creator that supposedly created something so unimaginably big?
i think you are having a hard time putting yourself in a position of insignificance.... look at the video footage of the tsunami...and tell me how significant you would be to it as it sweeps you away...

However, if you want to believe that earth is insignificant because of black holes, if you want to believe that you are insignificant because tsunamis and earthquakes don’t think we are significant(chuckles, that just sounds silly to me) then go right ahead and believe that. If you want to believe that everything and everybody is insignificant for whatever odd reason, then by all means go right ahead. Everyone has a right to believe whatever it is they want. But just don’t expect everyone to think that earth is insignificant when obviously it is not insignificant. And no, it is not “hubris” to believe or know our significance. I, myself, most certainly do not believe that the Creator created the entire universe with us in mind. But I most certainly believe He created some aspects as a part of His plan for us (sort of the way parents start getting things ready because they know they’ll be having kids), and I most certainly believe He created us for a specific reason. There’s a reason for all that the Creator created even when we don't realize what that reason is.

yes everyone has a right to believe what they want, you seem to have a problem with me having to ask a question...

edit:
so as kilgore trout put it, where we made for bacteria and wouldn't it be arrogant for them to think that we were...if they could

 

[waitasec]

Only in your obviously biased view.

I simply quoted scriptural statements without further comment in order to provide information rather than trying to create arguably weaker paraphrases. Please note that _I_ am not the one making those statements: your argument appears to be with the author rather than with me.

Of course, if you prefer to blind yourself to whatever truth may be presented, that's strictly your call and nothing I can control or take responsibility for. . . .

I made the text available. Anything more is your concern, not mine.

Bruce

scripture is the result of hubris.

 

[waitasec]

So, if tsunamis had feelings, that would prove a loving and caring god.

tsunami's don't have feelings...that's the truth of the matter
you nailed it!
because i have feelings and a tsunami doesn't
insignificance is the best word i can come up with that would describe my
interaction with it as incomparable, inconsequential, irrelevant, inconsiderable

if tsunamis had feelings that would prove an evil god.

 

[Willamena]

tsunami's don't have feelings...that's the truth of the matter
you nailed it!
because i have feelings and a tsunami doesn't
insignificance is the best word i can come up with that would describe my
interaction with it as incomparable, inconsequential, irrelevant, inconsiderable

if tsunamis had feelings that would prove an evil god.

Similarly, that tsunamis don't have feelings doesn't imply an uncaring god.

Edit: It's as much hubris to indicate the tusnami implies an uncaring god because all those people died as it is to indicate that scriptural text implies god wrote words just for us.

 

[DreadFish]

In reference to the OP, because I was too late to catch it

The earth is small only in relation to those things that are bigger. To other things, the earth, and even we and humans, are extremely huge.

Big and small are completely relative.



Anyway, I never really thought about the question, but it's a good one. I dont have an opinion on it at the moment

 

[waitasec]

In reference to the OP, because I was too late to catch it

The earth is small only in relation to those things that are bigger. To other things, the earth, and even we and humans, are extremely huge.

Big and small are completely relative.



Anyway, I never really thought about the question, but it's a good one. I dont have an opinion on it at the moment

thanks for your comment...i think in relation to what you said maybe you'd appreciate what kilgore trout posted:

Would it be hubris for a few bacteria in our gut to think we were made for them? I don't know whether it's hubris or not, but it is rather silly.

When it comes down to it, I think most people who think the universe was made for humans do so from a woefully limited perspective of scale and a lack of imagination.

cheers.

 

[DreadFish]

thanks for your comment...i think in relation to what you said maybe you'd appreciate what kilgore trout posted:



cheers.

Ohh, yep, I do like it. Sounds like a good answer to me

 

[waitasec]

Similarly, that tsunamis don't have feelings doesn't imply an uncaring god.

Edit: It's as much hubris to indicate the tusnami implies an uncaring god because all those people died as it is to indicate that scriptural text implies god wrote words just for us.

it is sheer hubris to consider that one is significant enough when they face a tsunami as if they can control it somehow...who thinks that?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

*blinks* with appropriate technology it would not be hubris

 

[waitasec]

*blinks* with appropriate technology it would not be hubris

you mean with evidence to support our significance as we compare ourselves to the universe, isn't hubris? i would agree.

however, life is temporal. even though we may be able to use our little noodles to destroy any comets heading towards earth, or if we can travel to a newer planet, time is still our enemy.... it is only a matter of time when every single sun in the universe dies or becomes a black hole... all forms of physical life will end one day...

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Ive never bought that theory, it is useful to an extent but overs simplified IMO still I understand what you are saying. What if, however, we could create a star? Granted technology is primarily used as a means to murder each other, but hey, maybe we could find a way to harness some technology to enable our race to survive such a time as you propose?

 

[waitasec]

Ive never bought that theory, it is useful to an extent but overs simplified IMO still I understand what you are saying. What if, however, we could create a star? Granted technology is primarily used as a means to murder each other, but hey, maybe we could find a way to harness some technology to enable our race to survive such a time as you propose?

but until that if becomes reality...

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Right, but what I am saying is that such hurdles might perhaps be surmountable by technology and were we capable of doing so it would not be hubris to consider those hurdles inconsequential. Would that mean that we could ever reach a point where we are capable of surmounting some sort of extra-universal hurdle? I have no idea. Personally I think humanity is unlikely to be around that long - we will either die off from something we do to our environment, kill ourselves or get wiped out by something / some race / someone with dramatically more power than humans... maybe some alien looking for a new vacation planet and looking to secure earth before we screw it up and reduce the resale value.


edit: my 200th post.... talking about an alien killing everyone so they can have a tan in peace then selling the place when they realise we screwed up the ozone layer... I didnt expect that as my 200th post

 

[waitasec]

Right, but what I am saying is that such hurdles might perhaps be surmountable by technology and were we capable of doing so it would not be hubris to consider those hurdles inconsequential. Would that mean that we could ever reach a point where we are capable of surmounting some sort of extra-universal hurdle? I have no idea. Personally I think humanity is unlikely to be around that long - we will either die off from something we do to our environment, kill ourselves or get wiped out by something / some race / someone with dramatically more power than humans... maybe some alien looking for a new vacation planet and looking to secure earth before we screw it up and reduce the resale value.

of course. i hear what you're saying, the potential is there...we've come a long way
but just like a singer on american idol who claims to be the best and proves to the world that they are then there is no hubris, it's supported with evidence.

: my 200th post.... talking about an alien killing everyone so they can have a tan in peace then selling the place when they realise we screwed up the ozone layer... I didnt expect that as my 200th post

consider yourself over the hurdle now

 

[thebigpicture]

in our ecosystem, this little tiny blue planet of ours...we are significant to each other...i think you and i can agree to that...

Okay, then it goes back to my original question to you... Do you think that people are completely insignificant in the (grand) scheme of things? Are we completely insignificant existence-wise?

but my question is, how are we significant to the black hole that is sitting in the middle of our galaxy...how are we significant...
look at the above footage of the tsunami...were peoples lives significant and being considered...? no

We’re not the only galaxy that has a black hole. Does that mean every other planet in every other galaxy is insignificant as well?

You’re giving perspectives to things that really aren’t capable of having a perspective. When a hurricane strikes, it doesn’t say, “Okay, I’m going to take out Eric’s house, but leave Jill’s.” That’s just not the way it works. You also seem to not be considering the fact that there are survivors in the disasters you mention. Let’s say that a tsunami hits a place that has a population of 1,000,000. Out of the million, 700,000 live and 300,000 die... what do you think will get the most coverage? Of course it’s going to be the 300,000 because it’s a tragic loss of life. But 700,000 also lived. Tsunamis don’t hand pick who to kill and who to let live. If you go into a neighborhood that was hit by hurricane winds and the majority of the houses were left intact, but three houses had trees that fell on them -- by your logic, the people whose houses were demolished are insignificant because trees fell on their houses. If a person parks their car by a light pole and comes back to find that the pole has fallen onto their car, is that person insignificant because the pole didn’t take into consideration that maybe that person didn’t want to have to get another car?

our eco system is not significant to the neighboring galaxy...
however a bee is a part of our ecosystem

The universe is vast. Different things are happening in different regions of it. That doesn’t make any of the things in the universe insignificant. There are things that happen on other planets that are completely different than what happens on our planet. Does that mean that the other planets are insignificant because what’s happening on those planets doesn’t seem to affect our ecosystem on earth? You’re looking at things in a sectional way. You’re not looking at the whole. What you’re doing is like someone who looks at just a small section of a painting. If a person focuses on just a small section of a painting, it would be easy for that person to say, “Well, I don’t see why this is even in this painting; it’s not even needed.” But if that person steps back and sees the whole painting, then they can realize just how important that section of the painting is in relation to the whole of the painting. We, as humans, cannot see the whole of the universe. We can’t see the Creator’s whole design; therefore, even though some things in the universe may seem insignificant to you as a human, it is not really insignificant at all.

you're reading into what i'm saying.
we are significant to each other because we are all the same

What do you mean by "We are all the same?" In what way?

what is it that is so significant?

All the Creator's creations.

and that way of thinking doesn't require a sense of hubris...

No, it doesn’t require hubris. Could we live on Saturn? No, we could not. That’s a fact. It has nothing to so with having hubris. That’s simply acknowledging a fact.

i'm beginning to think you haven't even looked at the pictures or the movies presented in this thread to give you an idea of how insignificant we are.

look at the video footage of the tsunami...and tell me how significant you would be to it as it sweeps you away...

I can completely see how a person could feel insignificant because of all the chaos, disasters, misery and darkness that is in the world. It is very easy to say: “What is all this really for? What’s the point of it all?” It’s very understandable for a person to feel that way because people are in the dark about so many things in life and there’s so much we don’t have any control over. Things happen all over the world and people are just left to have to deal with it. So I can definitely understand why a person would start to question why things are the way they are. That’s being human. But not having an understanding of everything does not mean it is all insignificant. The Creator created all that He created for a reason.

and you know this how?

The same way I know the importance of keeping our ecosystem balanced. There is a reason earth is in the universe, just like there’s a reason for all other celestial bodies. The Creator created Earth for a reason just like He created Jupiter, Saturn, and all the other planets in every other solar system. There is a certain balance to it all.

my question to you would be, how can one even fathom understanding a creator that supposedly created something so unimaginably big?

That’s just it; you can’t understand Him. I’ve never said we can understand the Creator. I’ve said the complete opposite. We really can’t fully understand the Creator because we are not capable of thinking like Him. We can’t see all that He sees, we don’t know all that He knows, we can’t do all that He does. It is impossible for us to see things from the Creator’s perspective because we are not Him.

i think you are having a hard time putting yourself in a position of insignificance....

No, it’s not that I’m “having a hard time putting (myself) in a position of insignificance,” Waitasec. I just really don’t see the logic in your reasoning. Maybe you’re not really explaining yourself correctly. Maybe you’re wanting to say one thing, but you’re writing something that’s not really reflecting what it is you’re actually trying to say. Sometimes a person can mean one thing, but what they say comes off totally different than what they actually mean. I can only go by what you are writing, and based on that, I don’t see the logic in it at all whatsoever.

. . . you seem to have a problem with me having to ask a question...

Waitasec, what is this about? What in the world are you talking about? Explain specifically why you wrote this. I would like for you to point out specifically where I ever said or even reflected to have a problem with you asking a question.

 

[waitasec]

Okay, then it goes back to my original question to you... Do you think that people are completely insignificant in the (grand) scheme of things? Are we completely insignificant existence-wise?

what do you consider to be "the grand scheme of things?"
and what do you have to back up that claim that isn't based on feelings but rather on empirical evidence?

We’re not the only galaxy that has a black hole. Does that mean every other planet in every other galaxy is insignificant as well?

i don't care if other galaxies have a black hole or not...
my point being the entire universe will be black one day

You’re giving perspectives to things that really aren’t capable of having a perspective. When a hurricane strikes, it doesn’t say, “Okay, I’m going to take out Eric’s house, but leave Jill’s.” That’s just not the way it works.

maybe the grand scheme of things do not consider peoples feelings...
like how truth doesn't.

You also seem to not be considering the fact that there are survivors in the disasters you mention. Let’s say that a tsunami hits a place that has a population of 1,000,000. Out of the million, 700,000 live and 300,000 die what do you think will get the most coverage? Of course it’s going to be the 300,000 because it’s a tragic loss of life. But 700,000 also lived.

so what? even if 1 died that 1 person was insignificant to the massive power of a tsunami.

Tsunamis don’t hand pick who to kill and who to let live.

exactly my point. do you really think i'm telling you anything different? as if a tsunami deliberately picked japan? these things happen regarless of what one may feel about it

If you go into a neighborhood that was hit by hurricane winds and the majority of the houses were left intact, but three houses had trees that fell on them -- by your logic, the people whose houses were demolished are insignificant because trees fell on their houses. If a person parks their car by a light pole and comes back to find that the pole has fallen onto their car, is that person insignificant because the pole didn’t take into consideration that maybe that person didn’t want to have to get another car?

by your logic the houses that were spared were found in favor for a reason...by your logic the pole that landed on the car the owner got what he deserved...that is hubris. my logic includes chaos and indifference, someone who thinks that we are significant in the scheme of things depends on favoritism as the solution for why only certain people are proven insignificant while others found significant and there has to be a reason why certain people were spared...that is hubris.
i don't think there has to be a reason, we are all just as insignificant as the next guy when comparing ourselves to nature.

The universe is vast. Different things are happening in different regions of it. That doesn’t make any of the things in the universe insignificant. There are things that happen on other planets that are completely different than what happens on our planet. Does that mean that the other planets are insignificant because what’s happening on those planets doesn’t seem to affect our ecosystem on earth?

our galaxy is on a collision course with another one...
explain our significance to that? our sun will super nova, explain our significance to that...i don't care what happens on another planet because it is insignificant to me but i care if my sun dies, i have no power over that...
it's like monitoring the water supply as it slowly dwindles away while i wait for it to rain, i can't control if it rains or not, i am insignificant to the water cycle...it rains when it rains.

You’re looking at things in a sectional way. You’re not looking at the whole.

what is the whole?
besides, considering that our galaxy is colliding with another one, which will occur millions of yrs from now, isn't looking at things in a sectional way

What you’re doing is like someone who looks at just a small section of a painting. If a person focuses on just a small section of a painting, it would be easy for that person to say, “Well, I don’t see why this is even in this painting; it’s not even needed.” But if that person steps back and sees the whole painting, then they can realize just how important that section of the painting is in relation to the whole of the painting. We, as humans, cannot see the whole of the universe. We can’t see the Creator’s whole design; therefore, even though some things in the universe may seem insignificant to you as a human, it is not really insignificant at all.

but that is assuming if everyone else is capable of seeing the entire picture empirically.
in this thread we have provided the biggest picture for us to see how infinitely tiny we are and apparently you don't like it...but it is empirical evidence you cannot deny....everything else such as 'there is a reason' is speculation based on wishful thinking
sure i get it, it's not a comfortable feeling being as significant as an ant crossing the sidewalk that was stomped on, just because he happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time... it would be outrageous if ants thought there was a reason for that to happen... don't you think?

What do you mean by "We are all the same?" In what way?

we have the power to affect each other intentionally or not

All the Creator's creations.

as i suspected...so what was the significance of having my friends 3 yr old die of a brain tumor? or my father in law dying from lung cancer and when i just escaped death by being 1 inch closer to the curb?

The Creator created all that He created for a reason.

how do you know this is the case...like that ant who thinks there is a reason for being stomped on...how do you know? and what is the reason?
be forewarned...if you claim to know you need to back it up with empirical evidence and if you claim to know what the reason is you still need to back it up with evidence...wishful thinking is not evidence.

The same way I know the importance of keeping our ecosystem balanced. There is a reason earth is in the universe, just like there’s a reason for all other celestial bodies. The Creator created Earth for a reason just like He created Jupiter, Saturn, and all the other planets in every other solar system. There is a certain balance to it all.



That’s just it; you can’t understand Him. I’ve never said we can understand the Creator. I’ve said the complete opposite. We really can’t fully understand the Creator because we are not capable of thinking like Him. We can’t see all that He sees, we don’t know all that He knows, we can’t do all that He does. It is impossible for us to see things from the Creator’s perspective because we are not Him.

but you say you do because you say the creator created us for a reason
how do you know that?

No, it’s not that I’m “having a hard time putting (myself) in a position of insignificance,” Waitasec. I just really don’t see the logic in your reasoning. Maybe you’re not really explaining yourself correctly. Maybe you’re wanting to say one thing, but you’re writing something that’s not really reflecting what it is you’re actually trying to say. Sometimes a person can mean one thing, but what they say comes off totally different than what they actually mean. I can only go by what you are writing, and based on that, I don’t see the logic in it at all whatsoever.

well that can be true, however i am of the opinion that people read what they want to read...sure maybe i wasn't clear enough but that only seems to be the case with only a hand full of people that i debate with

Waitasec, what is this about? What in the world are you talking about? Explain specifically why you wrote this. I would like for you to point out specifically where I ever said or even reflected to have a problem with you asking a question.

it's a question, and where i come from i am free to present my questions about religion since we are in the religious debating section...

a friend of the family is a hard core christian
she thinks that when her 75 yr old father fell on his head from the roof of his house god was watching out for him and saved him
another friend believes that if she prays to god he will heal her arthritis, my mom thinks that my niece can be healed from type 1 diabetes with prayer and fasting (on my moms part). sure the thought is nice on the out side, but really what this means is that they actually think there is a being out there, the one who created the universe is concerned with the goings on with their small world...a world that is no smaller than mine.

 

[thebigpicture]

it's a question, and where i come from i am free to present my questions about religion since we are in the religious debating section...

You neglected to answer my question. This is what you wrote during our conversation two posts ago:

yes everyone has a right to believe what they want, you seem to have a problem with me having to ask a question...

You implicated that I had a problem with you asking a question. So I’m going to ask again... Where specifically did I ever say, reflect or even imply that I had a problem with you asking a question?

what do you consider to be "the grand scheme of things?"

The Creator's grand design; His plan.

and what do you have to back up that claim that isn't based on feelings but rather on empirical evidence?

be forewarned...if you claim to know you need to back it up with empirical evidence and if you claim to know what the reason is you still need to back it up with evidence...wishful thinking is not evidence.

but you say you do because you say the creator created us for a reason
how do you know that?

Experience. That's about all I'm willing to say about that. Not to mention, I already partially answered this question in my last reply. Remember how I mentioned the ecosystem in my answer?

i don't care if other galaxies have a black hole or not...
my point being the entire universe will be black one day

our galaxy is on a collision course with another one...
. . . our sun will super nova . . .

besides, considering that our galaxy is colliding with another one, which will occur millions of yrs from now . . .

As I stated before... thank goodness you don’t decide what is and isn’t insignificant because everything would end up being deemed useless.

You’re saying the entire universe will be black one day... Are you saying you can see into the future? You know for sure this is going to happen? You don’t even know what’s going to happen tomorrow yet you think you know what’s going to happen a million years from now? You have no clue in what state the universe will be in in a couple of years let alone a million years. No one but the Creator Himself knows what the future holds for the universe. People guess; scientists guess, but no one knows for sure until or unless it happens. Let’s not be rash.

maybe the grand scheme of things do not consider peoples feelings... like how truth doesn't.

Are you expecting truth to consider people’s feelings? Bluntly put -- that ain’t the way truth works.

so what? even if 1 died that 1 person was insignificant to the massive power of a tsunami.

"So what"? Are you one of those people who can never see the good or positive in anything because all you can see is the bad and negative?

exactly my point. do you really think i'm telling you anything different? as if a tsunami deliberately picked japan?

This is what you wrote:

look at the above footage of the tsunami...were peoples lives significant and being considered...? no

look at the video footage of the tsunami...and tell me how significant you would be to it as it sweeps you away...

By these statements you implied tsunamis could consider people’s feelings as if the tsunami itself had feelings. If you’re now saying that’s not what you meant, then I’ll take your word for it. As I stated in my last post, sometimes people don’t always convey correctly what it is they are actually meaning to say.

by your logic the houses that were spared were found in favor for a reason...by your logic the pole that landed on the car the owner got what he deserved...that is hubris.

Totally incorrect. Not at all my logic. As a matter of fact, I’ve said the complete opposite. No one knows why things happen the way they happen. We don’t see what the Creator sees, we don’t know what He knows. We can’t see from His perspective. The Creator knows why all these things happen the way they do. We don’t. In my example, the pole fell on the guy’s car because he parked in the wrong place at the wrong time. I will say this, however, there are times in people’s lives when something seemingly goes wrong, but is later found to have been a fortunate thing to have happened.

what is the whole?

The grand scheme of things.

but that is assuming if everyone else is capable of seeing the entire picture empirically.
in this thread we have provided the biggest picture for us to see how infinitely tiny we are. . .

...but it is empirical evidence you cannot deny....everything else such as 'there is a reason' is speculation based on wishful thinking

Negative. You have not written one bit of "evidence" that we are insignificant. We are insignificant in your mind and people that think like you.

. . . and apparently you don't like it

This is not about whether or not I like what you are saying, Waitasec. I’m not one to evade truth. I just simply don’t agree with what you are saying, period. If you were saying something I agreed with, if I felt it was truth, I would agree it was the truth whether I liked it being the truth or not. I’m not the type who’ll evade what’s true. I simply don’t see any logic in what you are saying, plain and simple. No more; no less.

sure i get it, it's not a comfortable feeling being as significant as an ant crossing the sidewalk that was stomped on, just because he happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time... it would be outrageous if ants thought there was a reason for that to happen... don't you think?

Huh? That's neither here nor there.

we have the power to affect each other intentionally or not

Agreed.

as i suspected...so what was the significance of having my friends 3 yr old die of a brain tumor? or my father in law dying from lung cancer and when i just escaped death by being 1 inch closer to the curb?

That is extraordinarily sad. As I stated before, some things cannot be explained. Things like that happening to a baby is one of them. It can be so inconceivable. People often start to feel bitter due to things they cannot understand. It makes them vulnerable to making wrong assumptions. It's extremely difficult to live in a world like the one we live in and not have questions; to not feel any negativity. It's hard to wrap one's mind around the way things are in this world. Anyone who is honest and/or are not blind can see how dark this world is and how it continues to grow darker with each year that goes by. There are questions I'm sure many of us ask ourselves that we would love to know the answers to. It is normal and human.

a friend of the family is a hard core christian
she thinks that when her 75 yr old father fell on his head from the roof of his house god was watching out for him and saved him
another friend believes that if she prays to god he will heal her arthritis, my mom thinks that my niece can be healed from type 1 diabetes with prayer and fasting (on my moms part). sure the thought is nice on the out side, but really what this means is that they actually think there is a being out there, the one who created the universe is concerned with the goings on with their small world...a world that is no smaller than mine.

I know exactly what you mean. People pray always expecting to be answered, and sadly it doesn’t always work that way. There are those that even refuse needed medical attention because of that expectation. The problem is that people in religion are taught to have this expectation.

well that can be true, however i am of the opinion that people read what they want to read...sure maybe i wasn't clear enough but that only seems to be the case with only a hand full of people that i debate with

If you are saying and truly believe that I’m somehow trying to misconstrue what you are writing, then we can put an end to this conversation. I don’t play silly little games, so if someone genuinely thinks I am playing a game, it would be pointless to carry on with them. No hard feelings.

 

[waitasec]

You neglected to answer my question. This is what you wrote during our conversation two posts ago:

You implicated that I had a problem with you asking a question. So I’m going to ask again... Where specifically did I ever say, reflect or even imply that I had a problem with you asking a question?

here: post 81 and post 97 were your responses to my reason for asking the question in the OP...
our entire discourse has been about you not liking the question in the OP

so in light of that, i will repeat the question in question

how is this a humble stance?
to actually believe that this universe was created with us in mind?

doesn't it take a fair amount of hubris to believe such a thing?

The Creator's grand design; His plan.

doesn't it take a fair amount of hubris to believe that we are a part of a design?

Experience. That's about all I'm willing to say about that.

what kind of experience are we talking about...?

As I stated before... thank goodness you don’t decide what is and isn’t insignificant because everything would end up being deemed useless.

your putting words in my mouth...
this is what i said in post #42:

people like me have been dying yet life goes on. that isn't insignificant on my level of understanding because i can rationalize and reason the significance because that affects my life.

You’re saying the entire universe will be black one day... Are you saying you can see into the future? You know for sure this is going to happen? You don’t even know what’s going to happen tomorrow yet you think you know what’s going to happen a million years from now?

nope. i go by what cosmologists say...

No one but the Creator Himself knows what the future holds for the universe.

how do you know there is a creator?
doesn't it take a fair amount of hubris to concoct such an idea?

Are you expecting truth to consider people’s feelings?

can you please show me where i said truth considers peoples feelings...

Bluntly put -- that ain’t the way truth works.

please explain.

"So what"? Are you one of those people who can never see the good or positive in anything because all you can see is the bad and negative?

no. i'm a realist and i don't like candy coating the truth...

This is what you wrote:



By these statements you implied tsunamis could consider people’s feelings as if the tsunami itself had feelings.

no i did not. check out post #91 if you need more clarification...
and to drive my point home:

tsunami's don't have feelings...that's the truth of the matter
you nailed it!
because i have feelings and a tsunami doesn't
insignificance is the best word i can come up with that would describe my
interaction with it as incomparable, inconsequential, irrelevant, inconsiderable

or do you believe you are comparable, consequential and relevant as you are face to face with a tsunami?

As I stated in my last post, sometimes people don’t always convey correctly what it is they are actually meaning to say.

as i've stated people read what they want to read

Totally incorrect. Not at all my logic. As a matter of fact, I’ve said the complete opposite. No one knows why things happen the way they happen. We don’t see what the Creator sees, we don’t know what He knows. We can’t see from His perspective. The Creator knows why all these things happen the way they do. We don’t. In my example, the pole fell on the guy’s car because he parked in the wrong place at the wrong time. I will say this, however, there are times in people’s lives when something seemingly goes wrong, but is later found to have been a fortunate thing to have happened.

then explain this:

There’s clearly a reason for things to be the way they are. I don’t pretend to know there’s a reason for it all, I know there is a reason for it all, even if that reason is simply because the Creator created it just because He simply wanted to.

emphasis by you...

it takes a fair amount of hubris to suggest one knows something one simply cannot know...
we know how insignificant we are and excessive self confidence and pride seems to be able to soften the blow of that reality

Negative. You have not written one bit of "evidence" that we are insignificant. We are insignificant in your mind and people that think like you.

i have shown you evidence...do the research yourself, go to an observatory... and see how insignificant we are in space..

Huh? That's neither here nor there.

why because ants are insignificant to you?

that is the perspective i'm coming from. it makes sense in the scheme of things to compare an ant to our goings on where we never consider an ants feelings. how significant is an ant to you when your walking on a sidewalk or on the grass at the park?

Agreed

.
then you agree i don't think "everything would be deemed completely useless."

That is extraordinarily sad. As I stated before, some things cannot be explained. Things like that happening to a baby is one of them. It can be so inconceivable. People often start to feel bitter due to things they cannot understand. It makes them vulnerable to making wrong assumptions. It's extremely difficult to live in a world like the one we live in and not have questions; to not feel any negativity. It's hard to wrap one's mind around the way things are in this world. Anyone who is honest and/or are not blind can see how dark this world is and how it continues to grow darker with each year that goes by. There are questions I'm sure many of us ask ourselves that we would love to know the answers to. It is normal and human.

it is sad, but that is the way it is...
what is even sadder is that there are many children who do not have parents that for whatever reason cannot or will not do what my friends were able to do...the little boys father said that to me.

just because i think that we are insignificant to the space surrounding us doesn't mean i don't think we are not significant to each other. so can we get over this misconception.

I know exactly what you mean. People pray always expecting to be answered, and sadly it doesn’t always work that way. There are those that even refuse needed medical attention because of that expectation. The problem is that people in religion are taught to have this expectation.

not always? does that mean there are times when the creator gets involved in peoples lives?
if so, then i consider that line of thinking as hubris...

If you are saying and truly believe that I’m somehow trying to misconstrue what you are writing, then we can put an end to this conversation. I don’t play silly little games, so if someone genuinely thinks I am playing a game, it would be pointless to carry on with them. No hard feelings.

i don't think you are misconstruing what i said on purpose...
otherwise i wouldn't waste my time either.

 

[thebigpicture]

i don't think you are misconstruing what i said on purpose... otherwise i wouldn't waste my time either.

Okay, continuing on...

here: post 81 and post 97 were your responses to
my reason for asking the question in the OP...
our entire discourse has been about you not liking the question in the OP

Neither, I reiterate, neither one of the posts you referred to states, reflects or implies that I had a problem with you asking a question. You saying that they do... now that’s an example of someone “reading what they want to read.” Our entire discourse has not been about me not liking your question; it’s been about me disagreeing with your beliefs; with your point of view. That is typically what happens on a debate forum. Someone states their P.O.V. and others state whether or not they agree or disagree and a conversation ensues. In both posts (#81, #97) you referred to, I was simply stating how and why I disagreed with your belief. Period. Not once did I say I had a problem with you asking a question. I read your OP and responded like everybody else did. As a matter of fact I answered the questions you asked (and re-asked in your last post). I answered them in post #97. The very one you referred to. So why is it that you accuse me of having a problem with you asking a question and not everyone else? It seems to me that maybe you simply have a problem with me not agreeing with your point of view.

doesn't it take a fair amount of hubris to believe that we are a part of a design?

No, it does not. Earth accommodates humans very well. We have what we need in order to inhabit earth -- food, water, oxygen, gravity... It’s only natural to feel that it’s a strong possibility that the Creator had us inhabiting earth (in our physical forms) in mind at some point. That’s not hubris. That’s reasoning. An example: “Robyn” and “Cheryl” are roommates. Both are great friends with “Richard.” Cheryl’s birthday will arrive in two weeks and all she’s been talking about is a Range Rover. Richard one day has a conversation with Cheryl about her birthday and he asks for details about what exactly her dream Range Rover would entail. Two weeks later, she arrives home to find the Range Rover of her dreams parked in front of her place with a big red bow wrapped around it. Is it hubris for her to feel that the car is a birthday gift to her from Richard, even though she lives with Robyn and it could very well be for Robyn? No, it isn’t. It’s reasoning.

what kind of experience are we talking about...?

As I stated along with my answer in my last post -- that’s all I’m willing to say about it.

your putting words in my mouth...

I’m not putting words in your mouth. You said that earth is insignificant because of a black hole. Therefore, by your logic, if we’re insignificant because of a black hole, so are all the other planets in all the other solar systems that have black holes as well. You also said that the entire universe is going to go black one day. That would render everything useless. Therefore, by your logic, everything would end up being deemed useless.

nope. i go by what cosmologists say...

You do realize that cosmologists are human as well, right? There is an astronomical (no pun intended) amount of information about the universe that cosmologists know nothing about. They don’t know what’s going to happen to the universe. No one knows that but the Creator.

how do you know there is a creator?
doesn't it take a fair amount of hubris to concoct such an idea?

No, it doesn’t take hubris. You’re really stuck on that idea. Besides that point, I’m not going to go into details about why the Creator exists. If you want to know more details, you’ll have to go searching for it the threads as I've had the conversation before.

can you please show me where i said truth considers peoples feelings...

I didn’t state that you believed truth considers people’s feelings. I asked if you expected it to and it case you did, I went on to say that it doesn’t consider people’s feelings by writing: “Bluntly put -- that ain’t the way truth works” meaning the truth is the truth regardless of how people feel about that truth; whether that truth is liked or not.

no. i'm a realist and i don't like candy coating the truth...

Per my example, acknowledging that 700,000 survived a tsunami and that 300,000 people died and saying that it’s fortunate that those 700,000 lived and tragic that those 300,000 died is not “candy coating” the truth. It’s stating the truth exactly as it is. That’s realism. Saying, however, that it doesn’t matter how many survive if even one dies seems like the reflection of someone who can never see the good/positive in anything because all they can see is the bad/negative.

no i did not. check out post #91 if you need more clarification...and to drive my point home: as i've stated people read what they want to read

I read what people write. If you don’t write it, I can’t read it. Again, what you wrote in Post #101 personified tsunamis and black holes for that matter. Now the quote you provided in your last post, clearly stated that you did not feel tsunamis had feelings. Only thing is, I had not read that post as I don’t read every single post in every thread. Therefore, I could only go by what you’d written to me, and what you wrote to me clearly personified tsunamis. Had you’d written to me the quote you used in your last post instead of what you stated in your post to me, I would have never believed and/or implied that you believed tsunamis had feelings.

or do you believe you are comparable, consequential and relevant as you are face to face with a tsunami?

I’m a human being. I don’t compare myself to tsunamis. A tsunami is a tsunami and I’m a soul inside a physical vehicle on earth. Souls don’t invalidate the significance of tsunamis, and tsunamis don’t invalidate the significance of souls.

then explain this:
emphasis by you...

Here’s what I wrote in its full context:

Originally Posted by thebigpicture
Just because you can’t see the value in something that is so obviously significant doesn’t invalidate the significance. Obviously earth is the way it is just as other celestial bodies are the way they are for a reason. There’s a reason we are here on earth and not Saturn or any other planet in our solar system. There’s clearly a reason for things to be the way they are. I don’t pretend to know there’s a reason for it all, I know there is a reason for it all, even if that reason is simply because the Creator created it just because He simply wanted to. What I don’t know, however, is the specific reason for all things. The Creator knows that; we don’t.

In the above quote I am speaking specifically about creations. Things the Creator created. I’m saying that though I don’t know the specific reason, I know there is a reason.

Then I wrote:"No one knows why things happen the way they happen. We don’t see what the Creator sees, we don’t know what He knows. We can’t see from His perspective. The Creator knows why all these things happen the way they do. We don’t."

In that quote, I am speaking of things that happen in the world. I'm stating that we don’t know why things happen the way they do because we can’t see from the Creator’s perspective.

Therefore, my logic is stated very clearly and has remained consistent. Your understanding of it is faulty.

we know how insignificant we are and excessive self confidence and pride seems to be able to soften the blow of that reality

Again, we are insignificant in your mind and people that think like you. Maybe it’s more about your lack of esteem rather than what you see as others’ over confidence.

why because ants are insignificant to you?
how significant is an ant to you when your walking on a sidewalk or on the grass at the park?

Have you not read what I’ve been stating over and over again. I stated that there is a reason for all of the Creator’s creations. Therefore, the ant was created for a reason. It is significant. And for the record, ants are very significant to me when I’m walking or I am in the grass as I try to avoid them so that I’m not their next meal.

then you agree i don't think "everything would be deemed completely useless."

No, I still feel that by your logic, everything would end up being deemed useless. What I was agreeing with you about was that we have the ability to affect each other.

just because i think that we are insignificant to the space surrounding us doesn't mean i don't think we are not significant to each other. so can we get over this misconception.

It was never a misconception on my part. I’ve never said that you didn’t believe we were significant to each other. Based on your statements, I understand that you know that we are significant to each other. I'd asked if you thought we were completely insignificant as creations.

not always? does that mean there are times when the creator gets involved in peoples lives? if so, then i consider that line of thinking as hubris...

Again, it’s not hubris to feel that the Creator gets involved. It’s unfortunate that you feel that He never does. It’s not hubris for people to have hope that the Creator gets involved. And to acknowledge that the Creator does get involved is not reflecting hubris; it’s showing gratitude.

 

[BruceDLimber]

cripture is the result of hubris.

Only in the case of persons full of the same!


Bruce