how is this a humble stance?

[thebigpicture]

or are you meaning how we are aware of our own mortality?

I was asking if you felt that people were completely insignificant in the scheme of things existence wise.

in the scheme of things we are aware of our insignificant solar system as we compare it to the rest of of the universe where a sun dies every second, our galaxy is going to collide with another galaxy....black holes and quasars... it's pretty apparent how insignificant we are.

i do not believe that holds any significance in the universe...because people like me have been dying yet life goes on. that isn't insignificant on my level of understanding because i can rationalize and reason the significance because that affects my life.

what i'm trying to convey is that no one on this little planet is more significant than the other, no religion is more significant, no belief system is going to stand out because this little tiny blue planet is insignificant in the universe...that to me is humbling...

Regarding both people and the earth: From reading some of your posts, you seem to be saying that we’re automatically insignificant until proven significant by being “bigger” (more important) than something else.

I think you’ve said before that you don’t believe that a Creator exists, or that you are not sure where you stand on the matter, so I’m going to look at your reasoning from two perspectives: one who believes in the Creator and one who does not.

I can’t speak for all people who have faith in the existence of a Creator, but from my personal POV, everything that the Creator created has significance. Everything He created has a reason for being in existence. We may not realize what that significance or reason is, but not realizing the reason does not invalidate the significance. We are souls the Creator created that are in physical bodies. There is a reason the Creator created each individual soul. There is a reason we are all in existence. We can’t determine or always realize what that significance is in the grand scheme of things because we don’t know what the grand scheme is; the Creator knows.

If you don’t believe in the Creator, your reasoning still doesn’t add up. You stated that the bee is significant basically because it is obvious. You know specifically how it affects your life; therefore, it is significant. Yet you say that Planet Earth is not significant. I don’t understand how you can see the bee as being significant and not earth when the bee needs earth in order to be significant to people. If earth is not significant, then by your theory the bee would automatically become insignificant because the bee is not bigger (more important) than earth as earth can survive without bees, but bees cannot survive without the help of earth.

Earth is extremely significant. Look at all that it houses. There is a reason earth is in our solar system and their is a reason it is a part of the universe. We may not realize what that specific reason is, we may not realize the specific effect it has on the universe, but earth plays an important role just like all other celestial bodies. Sometimes you can’t always realize the importance of something when you are so up close and personal; sort of like, “The grass is always greener. . . .” The universe is vast and we can’t see the importance of every single part of it. But there is a reason for it all. Just because a person doesn’t realize how significant something is doesn’t mean it is insignificant. Some people don’t realize the importance of spiders until they see bugs that are more intolerable to them stuck in the web of one. Some people don’t realize the importance of the balance of the ecosystem until something knocks that balance out of alignment. There are people who don’t realize their own significance in life. There are people that believe that whatever it is they do, it is insignificant, or they feel they have no value; whereas, others standing on the outside can clearly see their value and the significance of what they do and who they are. Therefore, it would make more sense to say that some things seem insignificant until we are able to clearly realize the significance rather than say we start off as insignificant until proven significant.

 

[BruceDLimber]

i rest my case...

You have proven nothing whatever.

And please permit me to assure you that the passages I quoted can indeed be appreciated in true humility that shows not a shred of hubris should one so choose!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

t is arrogant to suppose . . . .

Only in your not-so-humble opinion.


And whether YOU happen to like it or not, I find the larger font far easier to read and therefore generally prefer it. You therefore presume far too much when you ascribe nefarious schemings to mere text size.

Bruce

 

[waitasec]

I was asking if you felt that people were completely insignificant in the scheme of things existence wise.



Regarding both people and the earth: From reading some of your posts, you seem to be saying that we’re automatically insignificant until proven significant by being “bigger” (more important) than something else.

I think you’ve said before that you don’t believe that a Creator exists, or that you are not sure where you stand on the matter, so I’m going to look at your reasoning from two perspectives: one who believes in the Creator and one who does not.

I can’t speak for all people who have faith in the existence of a Creator, but from my personal POV, everything that the Creator created has significance. Everything He created has a reason for being in existence. We may not realize what that significance or reason is, but not realizing the reason does not invalidate the significance. We are souls the Creator created that are in physical bodies. There is a reason the Creator created each individual soul. There is a reason we are all in existence. We can’t determine or always realize what that significance is in the grand scheme of things because we don’t know what the grand scheme is; the Creator knows.

If you don’t believe in the Creator, your reasoning still doesn’t add up. You stated that the bee is significant basically because it is obvious. You know specifically how it affects your life; therefore, it is significant. Yet you say that Planet Earth is not significant. I don’t understand how you can see the bee as being significant and not earth when the bee needs earth in order to be significant to people. If earth is not significant, then by your theory the bee would automatically become insignificant because the bee is not bigger (more important) than earth as earth can survive without bees, but bees cannot survive without the help of earth.

Earth is extremely significant. Look at all that it houses. There is a reason earth is in our solar system and their is a reason it is a part of the universe. We may not realize what that specific reason is, we may not realize the specific effect it has on the universe, but earth plays an important role just like all other celestial bodies. Sometimes you can’t always realize the importance of something when you are so up close and personal; sort of like, “The grass is always greener. . . .” The universe is vast and we can’t see the importance of every single part of it. But there is a reason for it all. Just because a person doesn’t realize how significant something is doesn’t mean it is insignificant. Some people don’t realize the importance of spiders until they see bugs that are more intolerable to them stuck in the web of one. Some people don’t realize the importance of the balance of the ecosystem until something knocks that balance out of alignment. There are people who don’t realize their own significance in life. There are people that believe that whatever it is they do, it is insignificant, or they feel they have no value; whereas, others standing on the outside can clearly see their value and the significance of what they do and who they are. Therefore, it would make more sense to say that some things seem insignificant until we are able to clearly realize the significance rather than say we start off as insignificant until proven significant.

i think the difference between your POV and mine is that,
i point out how undeniably insignificant we are in the scheme of things. however, you pretend to know there is a reason for that because you know there is a purpose...this entire post proves my point....you can't know...no one can.
and of course this idea that one knows there is a purpose, gives license to all sorts of things...9-11 being one. why would anyone want to condone that license to anyone? not me :no:

 

[waitasec]

You have proven nothing whatever.

And please permit me to assure you that the passages I quoted can indeed be appreciated in true humility that shows not a shred of hubris should one so choose!

Peace,

Bruce

your entire post assumes purpose (hubris)
the napoleon complex comes to mind

but look at this way, you're not alone

 

[Willamena]

your entire post assumes purpose (hubris)
the napoleon complex comes to mind

but look at this way, you're not alone

It's not (necessarily) hubris for people to have purpose.

It's hubris for them to put themselves in other things (to give other things the purpose of them).

 

[Willamena]

the napoleon complex comes to mind

Can you explain where you see "napoleon complex" in Bruce's quote, and how participation with God in the universe, described in the passages, equates to that?

 

[waitasec]

Can you explain where you see "napoleon complex" in Bruce's quote, and how participation with God in the universe, described in the passages, equates to that?

guess the sarcastic meter was down...

but lets use this quote from his post...

Out of My loving-kindness, ’neath the shade of My mercy I nurtured thee, and guarded thee by the essence of My grace and favor

we have loving kindness, nurture granted, grace and favor.

says who? feelings don't count in the scheme of things no matter how much one wishes they did.

 

[waitasec]

It's not (necessarily) hubris for people to have purpose.
It's hubris for them to put themselves in other things (to give other things the purpose of them).

you are right

9-11 was hubris
9-11 was a call to purpose because god told them to

purpose to control people's lives or to get rid of gods enemies is hubris.

 

[Willamena]

guess the sarcastic meter was down...

but lets use this quote from his post...


we have loving kindness, nurture granted, grace and favor.

says who? feelings don't count in the scheme of things no matter how much one wishes they did.

Why not?

 

[waitasec]

Why not?

i don't know, feelings don't seem to be able to stop things from happening

[youtube]EninDGDOpX8[/youtube]
Helicopter view As tsunami hits Japan - YouTube


edit:
where is the
loving kindness, nurture granted, grace and favor in this event?

 

[Willamena]

i don't know, feelings don't seem to be able to stop things from happening

They also do stop things from happening. Painting a picture of insignificance is arbitrary.

edit:
where is the
loving kindness, nurture granted, grace and favor in this event?

Where it's always been: in the living. Painting a picture of pain and horror is arbitrary.

 

[waitasec]

They also do stop things from happening. Painting a picture of insignificance is arbitrary.

i didn't say feelings never stopped anything from happening...
they don't seem to stop things from happening where we are insignificant...

Where it's always been: in the living. Painting a picture of pain and horror is arbitrary.

right, we are significant to each other...however we are not to a tsunami.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Only in your not-so-humble opinion.


And whether YOU happen to like it or not, I find the larger font far easier to read and therefore generally prefer it. You therefore presume far too much when you ascribe nefarious schemings to mere text size.

Bruce

If you find the font size easier to read, there is an easy fix - change your browser settings to display the text as a larger font size, or change your screen resolution.... dont bombard others with oversized text.


That said, how is it that my claims that humans are imperfect and some omnipotent omniscient god is far beyond us - how can that possibly be called arrogant? unless I was claim to BE that god, which I am not... at least in this conversation

 

[Me Myself]

to actually believe that this universe was created with us in mind?

doesn't it take a fair amount of hubris to believe such a thing?


Unbelievable Pictures Showing How Small Earth Really Is!

Why not? I am one of the persons for which the universe was created. One of the current 7 billion of us. (That only today, not counting all people in history and people who have yet to be)

Small things tend to be important. Isn´t an atomic bomb brought by by the separation of atoms?

all that said, I have no reason to believe only in earth there is life, but I am just speaking of how would that stance still be "humble".

Not that the term isn´t wide enough anyways. The best way I´ve heard of the term is to talk about yourself to the most closeness of truth. So talking well of yourself is still humble as long as it is truth.

Never seen any virtue with self deprecation. Actualy, seen a wild amounf of sin coming out of self agresion

 

[Pegg]

to actually believe that this universe was created with us in mind?

doesn't it take a fair amount of hubris to believe such a thing?


Unbelievable Pictures Showing How Small Earth Really Is!

the universe is the work of Gods hands for his pleasure. The fact that he is willing to share it with us is different matter, but i agree that it is not a humble stance to think it is created for us.

 

[thebigpicture]

i think the difference between your POV and mine is that,
i point out how undeniably insignificant we are in the scheme of things. however, you pretend to know there is a reason for that because you know there is a purpose...this entire post proves my point....you can't know...no one can.
and of course this idea that one knows there is a purpose, gives license to all sorts of things...9-11 being one. why would anyone want to condone that license to anyone? not me :no:

Again... I’m not seeing any sense in what you are saying. Not any. None. If you are going to call one thing insignificant, then you may as well call everything insignificant because so many things depend on so many other things at different times for different reasons. To restate -- for you to say that a bee is significant and the earth is not when the bee cannot even survive without earth makes absolutely no sense to me at all what -- so -- ever. You can see the importance of a bee, but can’t see the importance of earth? Wow. Your resources come from earth yet somehow you find earth insignificant... because of black holes no less. Well, by your theory something bigger or more important can make black holes insignificant as well. It’s like a domino effect of something being insignificant because something else is (in your eyes) more significant. By your theory, everything can be insignificant because there could always be something bigger.

Bottom line, Waitasec... thank goodness you don’t decide what is or isn’t insignificant because sooner or later, everything would be deemed completely useless.

Just because you can’t see the value in something that is so obviously significant doesn’t invalidate the significance. Obviously earth is the way it is just as other celestial bodies are the way they are for a reason. There’s a reason we inhabit earth and not Saturn or any other planet in our solar system. There’s clearly a reason for things to be the way they are. I don’t pretend to know there’s a reason for it all, I know there is a reason for it all, even if that reason is simply because the Creator created it just because He simply wanted to. What I don’t know, however, is the specific reason for all things. The Creator knows that; we don’t. However, if you want to believe that earth is insignificant because of black holes, if you want to believe that you are insignificant because tsunamis and earthquakes don’t think we are significant(chuckles, that just sounds silly to me) then go right ahead and believe that. If you want to believe that everything and everybody is insignificant for whatever odd reason, then by all means go right ahead. Everyone has a right to believe whatever it is they want. But just don’t expect everyone to think that earth is insignificant when obviously it is not insignificant. And no, it is not “hubris” to believe or know our significance. I, myself, most certainly do not believe that the Creator created the entire universe with us in mind. But I most certainly believe He created some aspects as a part of His plan for us (sort of the way parents start getting things ready because they know they’ll be having kids), and I most certainly believe He created us for a specific reason. There’s a reason for all that the Creator created even when we don't realize what that reason is.

 

[BruceDLimber]

your entire post assumes purpose (hubris).

Only in your obviously biased view.

I simply quoted scriptural statements without further comment in order to provide information rather than trying to create arguably weaker paraphrases. Please note that _I_ am not the one making those statements: your argument appears to be with the author rather than with me.

Of course, if you prefer to blind yourself to whatever truth may be presented, that's strictly your call and nothing I can control or take responsibility for. . . .

I made the text available. Anything more is your concern, not mine.

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

That said, how is it that my claims that humans are imperfect and some omnipotent omniscient god is far beyond us - how can that possibly be called arrogant? unless I was claim to BE that god, which I am not.

I fully agree with your first statement here!

Nor did I call you arrogant--in fact, I was under the impression that someone (apparently not you) was calling ME arrogant!

Regardless, I'm most happy to drop that and simply continue to converse, which I trust suits you, too.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Willamena]

right, we are significant to each other...however we are not to a tsunami.

So, if tsunamis had feelings, that would prove a loving and caring god.