How Odd Is Putin's Russia?

[Tomef]

Yes, I am against NATO machinations. Their purpose is to perpetuate American hegemony.

Repeating mantras is the opposite of ‘independent thinking’. This is simply something you have absorbed and learned to parrot - unless you can explain what you actually mean, and why you think it, in some kind of coherent fashion?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I do understand that, when comparing democracy and dictatorship, it's not an either/or, black-and-white comparison. It's more a matter of degrees along a spectrum. While it's true that I haven't actually "lived under" a dictatorship, whatever that might mean, it doesn't mean that Americans are strangers to political actions and various scourges sometimes associated with dictatorship. It's simply a matter of degree. Political power itself can be rather fluid and dynamic, even within a dictatorship.

The processes one might identify in the American political consciousness might be those related to excessive patriotism and a certain militaristic, national security mindset which has dominated US thinking for generations. It doesn't mean that America is a dictatorship, but it puts people in a certain frame of thinking which can still serve the same purposes. It's how they can become susceptible to lies, which is the process I was referring to in the portion you're quoting. Why have a dictator when a good salesman can simply talk them into compliance? Of course, keeping the people well-fed in the land of plenty overflowing with luxury and consumer goods also helps quite a bit. That's what keeps people in line more than anything else.

Thanks. I can see where you're coming from. I also agree that dictatorship is a matter of degree—for example, I don't think it would be reasonable to say that even most current dictatorships are on the level of, say, North Korea or Pinochet's Chile. There's also what you mentioned about democracies sometimes having elements that are typically associated with dictatorship. I would think McCarthyism would be one such example.

 

[Stevicus]

We don't know who will win that war.
If you told me to bet on it, I would bet on Russia, but that is a bet.

I would say both sides are losing, but looking solely at the numbers, Russia is in a better position to outlast in a war of attrition.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I would say both sides are losing, but looking solely at the numbers, Russia is in a better position to outlast in a war of attrition.

Well, yes, right now. And if nothing change then Russia could keep the upper hand in attrition, but it is not a given.
In the end in the unlike event the US election goes for Congress and the president for the democrats and the EU manage its right ving in politics to achive still pro-Ukranie politics, then it could change.

 

[Estro Felino]

I would say both sides are losing, but looking solely at the numbers, Russia is in a better position to outlast in a war of attrition.

It hurts.
It hurts excruciatingly knowing that Americans are totally unaware of what's going in Western Europe.
It's like we didn't even exist. It's like there was the Atlantic Ocean and then Ukraine and Russia.
The EU? No...we don't exist.

In Western Europe (except UK of course) people are sick and tired of the war.... and the fact that Draghi wasn't elected President of the Commission clearly shows that the globalist front has lost.
Von der Leyen is the result of an accord between socialists and rightists...behind the scene, but her presence clearly shows that Russia has won.

And btw... Biden's withdrawal speaks volumes. Huge volumes.

 

[Estro Felino]

Well, yes, right now. And if nothing change then Russia could keep the upper hand in attrition, but it is not a given.
In the end in the unlike event the US election goes for Congress and the president for the democrats and the EU manage its right ving in politics to achive still pro-Ukranie politics, then it could change.

I didn't understand anything...dear.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I didn't understand anything...dear.

If the West starts donating 100% more weapons and money to sustain Ukraines war effort then Ukraine could win.

 

[Estro Felino]

If the West starts donating 100% more weapons and money to sustain Ukraines war effort then Ukraine could win.

By the West you mean the EU?
In a parallel universe the EU will waste money on that lost cause.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

By the West you mean the EU?
In a parallel universe the EU will waste money on that lost cause.

No, the West more broadly than just the EU.

 

[Estro Felino]

No, the West more broadly than just the EU.

I'd advise Denmark and Sweden to leave the EU, before it's too late.
After all...Denmark knows very well who gained access into the Baltic Sea on September 26 2022 and sabotaged the pipelines.

But they won't tell us.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'd advise Denmark and Sweden to leave the EU, before it's too late.
After all...Denmark knows very well who gained access into the Baltic Sea on September 26 2022 and sabotaged the pipelines.

But they won't tell us.

Yeah, you have your opinion. I have mine.

 

[Stevicus]

That changed in the 90s. I still remember a guy eyeing my bag the moment I put it down, then giving me a ‘yeah ok’ grin when I spotted him. Lot of chaos, Putin to be fair managed to get that mostly under control, essentially by getting those who benefited most from the pillaging of state companies to think he was the guy they needed in charge - modest, pliable (or so they thought). Those people in turn had other otherlings, who had other underlings, and so on down. That was a scary period for a lot of Russians I think, and helps explain why they cling on to Putin. Facing the realities of 20th C Russia and building on the ruins is a pretty scary idea. Ukrainians have the stomach for something like that, but most Russians want someone to tell them everything is ok and just keep on drinking the koolaid.

Around the time of the end of the Cold War, I recall being somewhat disillusioned, since the US government still continued to suck up to China, even after the Tiananmen Square massacre, yet still maintaining a hardline stance against a liberalizing and conciliatory Russia (which is what they were at that time).

Another thing that became obvious is that, in light of the fact that NATO did not dissolve and that the US did not stand down from its role as "leader of the free world" (since the fall of the USSR made such terms obsolete), the entire basis for the Cold War was founded entirely on false pretenses. It was mainly just a pretext for US world-wide military adventurism and intrigue, as it was clear the U.S. was not going to stop doing those things even though the original reasons for doing them no longer existed.

One event that apparently caused once positive opinions about America to turn into negative perceptions was the U.S. bombing of Belgrade in 1999. The Russians have always had a strong sympathy for Serbia, and the U.S. bombing of Belgrade clearly outraged them to some degree. (The U.S. also "accidentally" bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, which certainly got the Chinese rankled.) For Americans, something like that is just a little blip might they hear on the news, hardly paying much attention - and most Americans end up forgetting things like that.

 

[Stevicus]

Well, yes, right now. And if nothing change then Russia could keep the upper hand in attrition, but it is not a given.
In the end in the unlike event the US election goes for Congress and the president for the democrats and the EU manage its right ving in politics to achive still pro-Ukranie politics, then it could change.

Possibly, although the Democrats still have a lot on their plate. The war in Ukraine is not the only issue in the world they have to contend with. There are many other issues demanding the time and resources of the U.S. government, and there's a danger they could end up spreading themselves too thin.

 

[Stevicus]

It hurts.
It hurts excruciatingly knowing that Americans are totally unaware of what's going in Western Europe.
It's like we didn't even exist. It's like there was the Atlantic Ocean and then Ukraine and Russia.
The EU? No...we don't exist.

In Western Europe (except UK of course) people are sick and tired of the war.... and the fact that Draghi wasn't elected President of the Commission clearly shows that the globalist front has lost.
Von der Leyen is the result of an accord between socialists and rightists...behind the scene, but her presence clearly shows that Russia has won.

And btw... Biden's withdrawal speaks volumes. Huge volumes.

Americans know that Europe exists, and this is the main reason why so many U.S. politicians and pundits are sounding the battle cry against Russia.

It's always been about protecting Europe (or some other part of the world), while America itself has always been relatively safe.

I think most Americans would be content to simply leave Europe alone and let them deal with their own stuff on their own, but you may have noticed that there is a certain strident level of "peer pressure" designed to convince Americans that other countries desperately need our help. It's the old story of the white knight rushing forth to save the damsel in distress. That's how Americans tend to look at it, as we are the "white knight," and Europe is the "damsel in distress." Or as Reagan once said "If not us, then who?" This notion has been a cornerstone of U.S. foreign policy and our worldview since WW2.

 

[Tomef]

Around the time of the end of the Cold War, I recall being somewhat disillusioned, since the US government still continued to suck up to China, even after the Tiananmen Square massacre, yet still maintaining a hardline stance against a liberalizing and conciliatory Russia (which is what they were at that time).

Another thing that became obvious is that, in light of the fact that NATO did not dissolve and that the US did not stand down from its role as "leader of the free world" (since the fall of the USSR made such terms obsolete), the entire basis for the Cold War was founded entirely on false pretenses. It was mainly just a pretext for US world-wide military adventurism and intrigue, as it was clear the U.S. was not going to stop doing those things even though the original reasons for doing them no longer existed.

One event that apparently caused once positive opinions about America to turn into negative perceptions was the U.S. bombing of Belgrade in 1999. The Russians have always had a strong sympathy for Serbia, and the U.S. bombing of Belgrade clearly outraged them to some degree. (The U.S. also "accidentally" bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, which certainly got the Chinese rankled.) For Americans, something like that is just a little blip might they hear on the news, hardly paying much attention - and most Americans end up forgetting things like that.

Yes, there have been and most likely will be incidents like that, such as the more recent shooting down of the Malaysian Airlines flight, that the Kremlin still tries to pin on Ukraine. The problem is more systemic though, I think. The West has, by and large, gone through the phase of seeing itself as the shining and unsullied light and generally I think ‘we’, broadly speaking, have a more realistic view of history. Russia hasn’t really grown up yet. It’s a country still clinging to its own delusions. All this childish silliness about the ‘decadent’ west is a constant motif of political discourse. Until they get some grown-ups in power there’ll be no real opportunity to work towards a viable future.

 

[Estro Felino]

Americans know that Europe exists, and this is the main reason why so many U.S. politicians and pundits are sounding the battle cry against Russia.

It's always been about protecting Europe (or some other part of the world), while America itself has always been relatively safe.

I think most Americans would be content to simply leave Europe alone and let them deal with their own stuff on their own, but you may have noticed that there is a certain strident level of "peer pressure" designed to convince Americans that other countries desperately need our help. It's the old story of the white knight rushing forth to save the damsel in distress. That's how Americans tend to look at it, as we are the "white knight," and Europe is the "damsel in distress." Or as Reagan once said "If not us, then who?" This notion has been a cornerstone of U.S. foreign policy and our worldview since WW2.

It's funny that the narrative here in Italy is totally the opposite.
That is, the "wicked élites" overseas are forcing our government to antagonize Russia and to favor the escalation of a WW3 against Russia, even if nobody here wants to fight (I have just heard an highly-decorated army official speaking of the general sentiment of our military).

So just realize how Satanic, how diabolical these élites are: in the US they shamelessly lie to the American people, saying that we Europeans need an American savior against the tsar. Whereas in the EU, these shameless élites reproach those European leaders who want peace, because desiring peace means treason against America.

These élites are worse than Satan. Satan is not as sly as them.

 

[Magic Man]

It hurts.
It hurts excruciatingly knowing that Americans are totally unaware of what's going in Western Europe.
It's like we didn't even exist. It's like there was the Atlantic Ocean and then Ukraine and Russia.
The EU? No...we don't exist.

Um, what?

In Western Europe (except UK of course) people are sick and tired of the war.... and the fact that Draghi wasn't elected President of the Commission clearly shows that the globalist front has lost.
Von der Leyen is the result of an accord between socialists and rightists...behind the scene, but her presence clearly shows that Russia has won.

And btw... Biden's withdrawal speaks volumes. Huge volumes.

Biden's withdrawal speaks volumes about the fact that he is too old and not in a good position to win the election. It speaks nothing about anything else.

 

[Estro Felino]

Um, what?

Biden's withdrawal speaks volumes about the fact that he is too old and not in a good position to win the election. It speaks nothing about anything else.

But he was old even six months ago...so why didn't he withdraw sooner?

 

[Magic Man]

It's funny that the narrative here in Italy is totally the opposite.
That is, the "wicked élites" overseas are forcing our government to antagonize Russia and to favor the escalation of a WW3 against Russia, even if nobody here wants to fight (I have just heard an highly-decorated army official speaking of the general sentiment of our military).

So just realize how Satanic, how diabolical these élites are: in the US they shamelessly lie to the American people, saying that we Europeans need an American savior against the tsar. Whereas in the EU, these shameless élites reproach those European leaders who want peace, because desiring peace means treason against America.

These élites are worse than Satan. Satan is not as sly as them.

That's not the narrative in Italy or anywhere meaningful. It's the narrative in the conspiracy-laden corners you love so much.

 

[Magic Man]

But he was old even six months ago...so why didn't he withdraw sooner?

Because until the debate he was still solidly the best option to beat Trump.