How Odd Is Putin's Russia?

[Soandso]

2. Ukraine was justified in deciding for themselves but not wise enough to avoid a war.

Didn't they already give up their nukes to Russia to Russia with an agreement that Russia would leave them alone? Seems war comes for them whether or not they wish to avoid it

 

[Magic Man]

I did listen to him. Peshernaja Rusofobija.

I know you did. I said most of us don't because he's completely untrustworthy.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Direct involvement is much different. That's the entire point of not getting directly involved, because that would risk actual WWIII.

Yeah, direct involvement means their own soldiers dying. Sure, US will avoid it after their experience in Vietnam and Afghanistan. But press Russia enough and we could still have a world war.

 

[Magic Man]

1. NATO/US (after all, NATO is a creature of US) does not want Russia as their competitor for world hegemony.

NATO is the "creature" of the 12 founding countries. NATO is not interested in "world hegemony", and they're not concerned with a "competitor". They're an alliance of nations that offers protection to all members. That's it. The rest is just your deep bias.

And even if Russia ceases to be one, then it will be replaced by China.
2. Ukraine was justified in deciding for themselves but not wise enough to avoid a war.

They were wise enough not to give Russia what they want. Russia's invasion is not a problem with Ukraine being unwise. It's Putin being a controlling dictator too obsessed with the affairs of other countries.

Again, stop blaming the victim. It's disgusting.

 

[Aupmanyav]

And yet you're defending them and blaming Ukraine. The same as blaming a rape victim. "Well, she chose to wear that revealing outfit. Of course the guy was going to rape her."

Yes, to some extent I am defending Russia because the war was brought on because of NATO expansion. I am blaming Ukraine for not being wise enough to avoid the war. They were rash in their relations with Russia. They should have acted wisely and not elected fools like Poroshenko. Poor Zelensky came only after loss of Crimea. The die was already cast.

 

[Magic Man]

Yeah, direct involvement means their own soldiers dying. Sure, US will avoid it after their experience in Vietnam and Afghanistan. But press Russia enough and we could still have a world war.

The U.S. and west will avoid it because of the risk of world war. Of course there's a risk anyway, but at a certain point, you have to take the risk. Otherwise, you'd just let Putin do whatever he wants.

 

[Tomef]

Russia would leave them alone?

Not just that they would leave them alone, Russia signed the Helsinki accords and Budapest memorandum, agreeing not only to respect but to defend Ukraine’s sovereign territory against any attack, within the borders existing at the time of signing, i.e. the same pre. 2014 borders. That’s what Putin’s continual complaints about the non-existent assurances from NATO are for, to deflect from the breaking of both of those legally binding agreements.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Repeating mantras is the opposite of ‘independent thinking’. This is simply something you have absorbed and learned to parrot - unless you can explain what you actually mean, and why you think it, in some kind of coherent fashion?

It simply means expand your tribe (NATO), leave your enemy without friends, try to destroy them with sanctions. This has worked till now. But it can turn nasty for all. Have I explained my views clearly or you are still dissatisfied?

 

[Magic Man]

Yes, to some extent I am defending Russia because the war was brought on because of NATO expansion.

No, the war was brought on because Russia instigated it and wants to control Ukraine.

I am blaming Ukraine for not being wise enough to avoid the war.

Right, you are blaming the victim. The only way to avoid war was to promise not to join NATO and to give up part of their country to Russia. That's not "unwise". It just means they wouldn't give in to Putin's demands, which is perfectly reasonable.

They were rash in their relations with Russia.

They were not. Russia was rash in their decision to invade a sovereign country simply for wanting to join an alliance that would protect them from...Russia trying to invade them.

They should have acted wisely and not elected fools like Poroshenko. Poor Zelensky came only after loss of Crimea. The die was already cast.

They did act wisely. They did not elect fools. Your extreme pro-Russia bias is still showing.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The U.S. and west will avoid it because of the risk of world war. Of course there's a risk anyway, but at a certain point, you have to take the risk. Otherwise, you'd just let Putin do whatever he wants.

US (and NATO) are taking a calculated risk. I hope their calculations are correct. ShukrAllah, we (India) are not involved.

 

[Tomef]

It simply means expand your tribe (NATO), leave your enemy without friends, try to destroy them with sanctions. This has worked till now. But it can turn nasty for all. Have I explained my views clearly or you are still dissatisfied?

I understand this is what you think. I also recognise a jumbled set of poorly founded notions, representing random feelings exploited by propagandists rather than ‘views’ in the sense of opinion based on knowledge of a topic.

 

[Estro Felino]

Not just that they would leave them alone, Russia signed the Helsinki accords and Budapest memorandum, agreeing not only to respect but to defend Ukraine’s sovereign territory against any attack, within the borders existing at the time of signing, i.e. the same pre. 2014 borders. That’s what Putin’s continual complaints about the non-existent assurances from NATO are for, to deflect from the breaking of both of those legally binding agreements.

Ukraine persecuted the Russian-speaking of Donbas. So the perpetrator is Kiev, here.

 

[Tomef]

Ukraine persecuted the Russian-speaking of Donbas. So the perpetrator is Kiev, here.

I’m assuming you still haven’t made any effort to check the facts: Ukraine Tells UN's Top Court Russia Using 'False' Genocide Allegations As Pretext For War

And that’s just the immediate issue. Without Russian agitation and the presence of Russian troops, issues in the Donbas could have been resolved a decade ago. You could find that out for yourself, if you had any motivation to look beyond the propaganda.

 

[Magic Man]

Ukraine persecuted the Russian-speaking of Donbas.

Nope, they didn't.

So the perpetrator is Kiev, here.

So, the perpetrator here is still Russia. This works a lot better when you look at facts, not the propaganda Putin pushes to you.

 

[Kathryn]

No, the war was brought on because Russia instigated it and wants to control Ukraine.

Right, you are blaming the victim. The only way to avoid war was to promise not to join NATO and to give up part of their country to Russia. That's not "unwise". It just means they wouldn't give in to Putin's demands, which is perfectly reasonable.

They were not. Russia was rash in their decision to invade a sovereign country simply for wanting to join an alliance that would protect them from...Russia trying to invade them.

They did act wisely. They did not elect fools. Your extreme pro-Russia bias is still showing.

I don't have extreme pro-Russia bias but let me show you where you're wrong:

I don't believe that Russia wants to control all of Ukraine, only the parts it used to control. Like the SW parts. Other than Crimea which is already under Russian control. I believe four parts in total. Not the entire country, even though at one point, Ukraine and Kiev were part of Russia.

Ukraine has been against joining NATO for many years and only began negotiations in June of 2017. It applied for EU membership in 2022, right after the Russian invasion. So suddenly it wants desperately to become part of NATO. Gee, I wonder why?

Anyway, I don't blame Ukraine for not wanting to give Russia any land - heck I wouldn't want to either. But I also don't think they need to be in NATO. I think we need to stay out of it as much as humanly possible. I don't trust Putin, or Russia, OR Ukraine.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don't have extreme pro-Russia bias but let me show you where you're wrong:

I don't believe that Russia wants to control all of Ukraine, only the parts it used to control. Like the SW parts. Other than Crimea which is already under Russian control. I believe four parts in total. Not the entire country, even though at one point, Ukraine and Kiev were part of Russia.

Ukraine has been against joining NATO for many years and only began negotiations in June of 2017. It applied for EU membership in 2022, right after the Russian invasion. So suddenly it wants desperately to become part of NATO. Gee, I wonder why?

Anyway, I don't blame Ukraine for not wanting to give Russia any land - heck I wouldn't want to either. But I also don't think they need to be in NATO. I think we need to stay out of it as much as humanly possible. I don't trust Putin, or Russia, OR Ukraine.

Do you rememer what happen in 2014?

 

[Tomef]

Ukraine and Kiev were part of Russia

Not part of Russia. Some parts of what is now Ukraine were part of the Russian Empire, for about a quarter of the time those lands were part of the Lithuanian Duchy / Polish empire. Other parts were under the Hapsburgs.

 

[Kathryn]

Not part of Russia. Some parts of what is now Ukraine were part of the Russian Empire, for about a quarter of the time those lands were part of the Lithuanian Duchy / Polish empire. Other parts were under the Hapsburgs.

Is that why Zelenskyy's first language is Russian?

 

[Tomef]

Ias that why Zelenskyy's first language is Russian?

Is what why?

Like other states occupied by the Russian empire, then the Russian bolsheviks (the Ukrainian bolsheviks were defeated), Ukraine underwent long periods of Russification. Under Tsarist rule, various attempts were made to eliminate Ukrainian language, culture and identity, same under the Soviets. Same reason that Moldovans speak Russian now, and many Estonians, Lithuanians and Finns spoke Russian before those countries managed to distance themselves from the Kremlin. Zelensky’s grandfather fought in the Red Army, he’s as Russified as anyone in terms of language at least.

West of Kyiv, mostly Ukrainian is spoken, in the central regions everyone is bilingual (most other Ukrainians are too), in the East, Russian is the everyday language, for the same kinds of reasons that the Scots and Irish mainly speak English rather than Gaelic.

 

[Kathryn]

Is what why?

Like other states occupied by the Russian empire, then the Russian bolsheviks (the Ukrainian bolsheviks were defeated), Ukraine underwent long periods of Russification. Under Tsarist rule, various attempts were made to eliminate Ukrainian language, culture and identity, same under the Soviets. Same reason that Moldovans speak Russian now, and many Estonians, Lithuanians and Finns spoke Russian before those countries managed to distance themselves from the Kremlin. Zelensky’s grandfather fought in the Red Army, he’s as Russified as anyone in terms of language at least.

West of Kyiv, mostly Ukrainian is spoken, in the central regions everyone is bilingual (most other Ukrainians are too), in the East, Russian is the everyday language, for the same kinds of reasons that the Scots and Irish mainly speak English rather than Gaelic.

"Some parts of what is now Ukraine were part of the Russian Empire, for about a quarter of the time those lands were part of the Lithuanian Duchy / Polish empire. Other parts were under the Hapsburgs." That's why I was asking about the Russian language and Zelenskyy, who is just now LEARNING Ukrainian.