How Odd Is Putin's Russia?

[Tomef]

It's funny that the narrative here in Italy is totally the opposite.
That is, the "wicked élites" overseas are forcing our government to antagonize Russia and to favor the escalation of a WW3 against Russia, even if nobody here wants to fight (I have just heard an highly-decorated army official speaking of the general sentiment of our military).

So just realize how Satanic, how diabolical these élites are: in the US they shamelessly lie to the American people, saying that we Europeans need an American savior against the tsar. Whereas in the EU, these shameless élites reproach those European leaders who want peace, because desiring peace means treason against America.

These élites are worse than Satan. Satan is not as sly as them.

This kind of delusional thinking is exactly what Hitler was able to leverage, to convince millions to go along with his plans. I don’t know why it is that some people are simply unable to tell the difference between reality and delusion, but I suppose it is what it is. For some reason some people need someone in a nice uniform or suit to tell them what to think. I guess it’s just a basic reality of human life.

 

[Estro Felino]

That's not the narrative in Italy or anywhere meaningful. It's the narrative in the conspiracy-laden corners you love so much.

Enlighten me...then.
So are you saying that my compatriots can hardly wait to fight a WW3 against Russia?

 

[Magic Man]

Enlighten me...then.
So are you saying that my compatriots can hardly wait to fight a WW3 against Russia?

No, I'm saying your compatriots don't buy into your conspiracy theories about "the elites" and America forcing other countries to fight Russia and such.

 

[Stevicus]

Yes, there have been and most likely will be incidents like that, such as the more recent shooting down of the Malaysian Airlines flight, that the Kremlin still tries to pin on Ukraine. The problem is more systemic though, I think. The West has, by and large, gone through the phase of seeing itself as the shining and unsullied light and generally I think ‘we’, broadly speaking, have a more realistic view of history. Russia hasn’t really grown up yet. It’s a country still clinging to its own delusions. All this childish silliness about the ‘decadent’ west is a constant motif of political discourse. Until they get some grown-ups in power there’ll be no real opportunity to work towards a viable future.

Russia is certainly different from what we might consider to be the West. I'm not sure if it's a case that they "haven't really grown up yet." They seem to look at things on a deeper, more philosophical level - perhaps due to long-term historical trauma. One thing that distinguishes them from most of the rest of Europe is that they lived for centuries under the Mongol Yoke, after which the Principality of Moscow started to gain greater power, slowly expanding from a small region into what would become the Russian Empire.

As for the 'decadent' West - that's another matter for protracted discussion. A lot of people from different factions, both religious and secular, have had a field day lambasting the West along those lines. Some say that we've become too "soft" and "spoiled." Some say we've grown lazy and fat. We've been spoiled by our own success and immersed ourselves in hedonistic luxury and demanding instant gratification.

I don't know if anyone is actually "grown up," to be honest. I live in a country where people have thrown tantrums and caused bodily injury and property damage because they couldn't get Chicken McNuggets.

 

[Kathryn]

Let's talk about a member of NATO threatening to invade Israel!

 

[Tomef]

They seem to look at things on a deeper, more philosophical level - perhaps due to long-term historical trauma.

A small number of them do - the handful that are well known. Largely, though, that’s a myth. Much of Russian thought is circular, we are great, we are victims, we’re surrounded by enemies, but we are great and will make them pay (etc). More philosophical than Americans perhaps, but not in any meaningful way.

It’s interesting to compare the somewhat romanticised view of Russia that still hangs around western academia with the Japanese perspective. Haruki Murakami, for example, in one of his novels, portrays how the gulags were run by basic thugs, with the most cunning of them rising to the top. Russians like to laud their dead writers, but when anyone really intelligent or open-minded speaks up in their own time, they rapidly make that person shut up if they become too truthful. Often permanently.

 

[Tomef]

We've been spoiled by our own success and immersed ourselves in hedonistic luxury and demanding instant gratification.

The elites in Russia do this to the nth degree. The ‘holy suffering’ bit is for the masses they lord it over.

 

[Tomef]

Russia is certainly different from what we might consider to be the West. I'm not sure if it's a case that they "haven't really grown up yet." They seem to look at things on a deeper, more philosophical level - perhaps due to long-term historical trauma. One thing that distinguishes them from most of the rest of Europe is that they lived for centuries under the Mongol Yoke, after which the Principality of Moscow started to gain greater power, slowly expanding from a small region into what would become the Russian Empire.

As for the 'decadent' West - that's another matter for protracted discussion. A lot of people from different factions, both religious and secular, have had a field day lambasting the West along those lines. Some say that we've become too "soft" and "spoiled." Some say we've grown lazy and fat. We've been spoiled by our own success and immersed ourselves in hedonistic luxury and demanding instant gratification.

I don't know if anyone is actually "grown up," to be honest. I live in a country where people have thrown tantrums and caused bodily injury and property damage because they couldn't get Chicken McNuggets.

Sure, maturity is rare. But everything is a question of degree, a relative comparison. Could today’s military be convinced to invade Canada if some prez got it into his head to do so? Could members of your govt directly steal billions of $ from the state, build lavish palaces, and get away with it? Would a president writing some fantastical history of the US be taken seriously?

 

[Estro Felino]

No, I'm saying your compatriots don't buy into your conspiracy theories about "the elites" and America forcing other countries to fight Russia and such.

In my country they don't fall for the conspiracy theory that Russia is the enemy of Europe.

 

[Tomef]

the Mongol Yoke, after which the Principality of Moscow

There’s a lot of mythologising around that too - Muscovy was a backwater village before the Mongols turned up, they benefitted hugely from Mongol influence, and learned a lot from them about how to run an empire. Kyiv, a much more advanced and prosperous city, was almost razed to the ground. The Muscovites decided unilaterally, much later, they were the true heirs of the Kievan Rus legacy. The bull**** narrative of sore trials under the Mongol yoke was just part of the narrative spun to support that. Not that they cared much what anyone else thought, Muscovy has been steeped in its own myths from those early days, and they simply dismiss real history as ‘foreign propaganda’ and suchlike.

 

[Magic Man]

In my country they don't fall for the conspiracy theory that Russia is the enemy of Europe.

In your country and elsewhere, they realize that's not a conspiracy theory. It's just true. Putin is the enemy of the west. He likes it that way.

 

[Estro Felino]

In your country and elsewhere, they realize that's not a conspiracy theory. It's just true. Putin is the enemy of the west. He likes it that way.

But Putin said, quote "In Italy there hasn't been that caveman-like Russophobia we have seen in other countries"

 

[Stevicus]

It's funny that the narrative here in Italy is totally the opposite.
That is, the "wicked élites" overseas are forcing our government to antagonize Russia and to favor the escalation of a WW3 against Russia, even if nobody here wants to fight (I have just heard an highly-decorated army official speaking of the general sentiment of our military).

So just realize how Satanic, how diabolical these élites are: in the US they shamelessly lie to the American people, saying that we Europeans need an American savior against the tsar. Whereas in the EU, these shameless élites reproach those European leaders who want peace, because desiring peace means treason against America.

These élites are worse than Satan. Satan is not as sly as them.

Well...I don't really believe in Satan. Some Americans think that God has blessed America, or that we have some kind of "mission from God" to fulfill. I never really believed that either, but it fits in with the general perceptions of American exceptionalism and the notion that America has some sort of special role in the world that no other nation can (or should) fulfill.

I was raised with that kind of patriotism myself, although I also saw a lot of opposition from progressives and peaceniks (often called "pinkos"). So, I've seen both sides pretty clearly in that debate. Although it's changed a lot since the end of the Cold War and the rise of the internet. Still, it is what it is, and as it eventually turned out, the "peaceniks" lost the battle for hearts and minds. Both parties have, by and large, supported the same kind of interventionist and militaristic foreign policies as we always have, although they have made more of an effort of trying to avoid some of the bad publicity which came out during the Vietnam era.

But if you've noticed, both parties wear the U.S. flag pin and rely heavily upon the whole patriotic mythos surrounding the military and protecting democracy, freedom, and the American way of life. At least on the surface. The devil is in the details.

 

[Estro Felino]

Well...I don't really believe in Satan. Some Americans think that God has blessed America, or that we have some kind of "mission from God" to fulfill. I never really believed that either, but it fits in with the general perceptions of American exceptionalism and the notion that America has some sort of special role in the world that no other nation can (or should) fulfill.

I was raised with that kind of patriotism myself, although I also saw a lot of opposition from progressives and peaceniks (often called "pinkos"). So, I've seen both sides pretty clearly in that debate. Although it's changed a lot since the end of the Cold War and the rise of the internet. Still, it is what it is, and as it eventually turned out, the "peaceniks" lost the battle for hearts and minds. Both parties have, by and large, supported the same kind of interventionist and militaristic foreign policies as we always have, although they have made more of an effort of trying to avoid some of the bad publicity which came out during the Vietnam era.

But if you've noticed, both parties wear the U.S. flag pin and rely heavily upon the whole patriotic mythos surrounding the military and protecting democracy, freedom, and the American way of life. At least on the surface. The devil is in the details.

I understand.
I believe this picture shows that in Europe, especially in my country, the intent has always been to favor peace between Russia and America.

 

[Tomef]

Russia is certainly different from what we might consider to be the West. I'm not sure if it's a case that they "haven't really grown up yet." They seem to look at things on a deeper, more philosophical level - perhaps due to long-term historical trauma. One thing that distinguishes them from most of the rest of Europe is that they lived for centuries under the Mongol Yoke, after which the Principality of Moscow started to gain greater power, slowly expanding from a small region into what would become the Russian Empire.

As for the 'decadent' West - that's another matter for protracted discussion. A lot of people from different factions, both religious and secular, have had a field day lambasting the West along those lines. Some say that we've become too "soft" and "spoiled." Some say we've grown lazy and fat. We've been spoiled by our own success and immersed ourselves in hedonistic luxury and demanding instant gratification.

I don't know if anyone is actually "grown up," to be honest. I live in a country where people have thrown tantrums and caused bodily injury and property damage because they couldn't get Chicken McNuggets.

There are ‘other Russians’ of course, perhaps you are thinking of this side of Russian culture: About us

Those in charge and those who willingly follow them however are a different breed.

 

[Stevicus]

A small number of them do - the handful that are well known. Largely, though, that’s a myth. Much of Russian thought is circular, we are great, we are victims, we’re surrounded by enemies, but we are great and will make them pay (etc). More philosophical than Americans perhaps, but not in any meaningful way.

It’s interesting to compare the somewhat romanticised view of Russia that still hangs around western academia with the Japanese perspective. Haruki Murakami, for example, in one of his novels, portrays how the gulags were run by basic thugs, with the most cunning of them rising to the top. Russians like to laud their dead writers, but when anyone really intelligent or open-minded speaks up in their own time, they rapidly make that person shut up if they become too truthful. Often permanently.

Solzhenitsyn wrote candidly about his time in the gulag, but he also still had a certain pro-Russian side and said that Americans "have no souls." He was definitely anti-Soviet, but still pro-Russian. While every country might have their deep thinkers - along with large number of vacuous, easily-led masses - it can still be difficult to predict where a nation might stand or what direction they might go. I don't even think that we know where we're going here in America.

One thing that I can see, at least as an American aware of my own country's position in the world, it's that I understand what it's like to live in a strong and powerful country. It's something that we're raised with almost literally from birth, at least from my generation. Of course, opinions might differ on peace or war or how America should use its immense wealth and power, but the basic idea of being a "superpower" was instilled in people's minds for a long time - and it still seems to be the case today, for the most part.

I also noticed this same perception among the Russians, as they, too, considered themselves a "superpower," which they were, at least back during those days.

 

[Tomef]

Solzhenitsyn wrote candidly about his time in the gulag, but he also still had a certain pro-Russian side and said that Americans "have no souls.

Yes, there’s a fair bit of that in some other Eastern European thinkers too. Cioran saw England as a ‘mechanistic’ society, more recently there’s Dan Puric, a conservative thinker who has a lot to say about the ‘spiritual’ vs ‘modern’ elements of East vs Western Europe (and the US). It’s a matter of perspective. Solzhenitsyn can seem deep, or cold and remote, depending on what/ how you read him. Solaris vs Space Odyssey is a good comparison maybe, did you bring that up before? That makes your point well.

 

[Magic Man]

But Putin said, quote "In Italy there hasn't been that caveman-like Russophobia we have seen in other countries"

But most of us don't listen to Putin because we know that nothing he says is trustworthy, especially when he uses phrases like "caveman-like Russophobia". Considering your country is still supporting Ukraine, I'd say most of the country is in fact not buying into your conspiracy theories.

 

[Estro Felino]

But most of us don't listen to Putin because we know that nothing he says is trustworthy, especially when he uses phrases like "caveman-like Russophobia". Considering your country is still supporting Ukraine, I'd say most of the country is in fact not buying into your conspiracy theories.

I did listen to him. Peshernaja Rusofobija.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Correct. I'll admit I might have a slight bias, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm basing things on the facts of the situation, not an affinity for Putin.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean.

1. NATO/US (after all, NATO is a creature of US) does not want Russia as their competitor for world hegemony.
And even if Russia ceases to be one, then it will be replaced by China.
2. Ukraine was justified in deciding for themselves but not wise enough to avoid a war.