How Odd Is Putin's Russia?

[Aupmanyav]

Ukraine is a country, culture and people and shouldn't have been attacked by Russia. Putin could have done it differently, but apparently he didn't want to go the democratic route and ask for UN controlled referendums.

Russia did not want any part of Ukraine. It just wanted Ukraine to keep away from NATO and EU embrace. But Ukraine did the opposite and got the Russian response. Russia has the same problems with other countries too, and you know it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So, basically, you don't have a clue.

I do not need a clue about American Presidents. That is not my country and it is not important for me. They can as well have Trump as their President. We will manage on our own.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Russia did not want any part of Ukraine. It just wanted Ukraine to keep away from NATO and EU embrace. But Ukraine did the opposite and got the Russian response. Russia has the same problems with other countries too, you know it.

So Crimea is still Ukranian according to Russia. And the same with the 4 other regions.

 

[Stevicus]

Yes, there’s a fair bit of that in some other Eastern European thinkers too. Cioran saw England as a ‘mechanistic’ society, more recently there’s Dan Puric, a conservative thinker who has a lot to say about the ‘spiritual’ vs ‘modern’ elements of East vs Western Europe (and the US). It’s a matter of perspective. Solzhenitsyn can seem deep, or cold and remote, depending on what/ how you read him. Solaris vs Space Odyssey is a good comparison maybe, did you bring that up before? That makes your point well.

Well, I think the main point I'm making here is that a perception of a country doesn't have to be one-sided. You mentioned how there was an overly romanticized view of Russia by Western academics and compared that with a Japanese view which seems to heavily demonize them. There can be a balance between demonization and romanticization, where someone like Solzhenitsyn can still love his country while severely criticizing it. The same might be said for Americans who love America, but still find reasons to criticize. However, there have also been those who say "America, love it or leave it" or take the McCarthy-inspired "those-who-are-not-with-us-are-against-us" approach.

 

[Magic Man]

It is the US/NATO intervention that brought the war on Ukraine.

Nope. It is Russia that brought the war on Ukraine, because they wanted to join NATO. Stop with the Russian propaganda.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So Crimea is still Ukranian according to Russia. And the same with the 4 other regions.

Zelensky should talk to Putin. Address his concerns. Then the scene could change. Or the war continues.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Zelensky should talk to Putin. Address his concerns. Then the scene could change. Or the war continues.

Answer please. Has Russia de facto annexed parts of Ukranie?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Nope. It is Russia that brought the war on Ukraine, because they wanted to join NATO. Stop with the Russian propaganda.

That is true. You agree to it, and I agree to it. The root of the trouble is in NATO. I am not engaged in propaganda for Russia.
Had they not wanted this, they would have escaped a war.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That is true. You agree to it, and I agree to it. The root of the trouble is in NATO. I am not engaged in propaganda for Russia.
Had they not wanted this, they would have escaped a war.

Who are they?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Answer please. Has Russia de facto annexed parts of Ukranie?

The war is continuing. There is no 'de facto' situation as of now. It is a fluid situation and Russia and NATO will act according to their reading of the situation. Ukraine basically has no say in the war. They will have to agree to NATO to get armaments. The alternative is to make peace with Russia.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The war is continuing. There is no 'de facto' situation as of now. It is a fluid situation and Russia and NATO will act according to their reading of the situation. Ukraine basically has no say in the war. They will have to agree to NATO to get armaments. The alternative is to make peace with Russia.

So the Russian Parliment has made no laws concering the 5 regions in play?

 

[Tomef]

Japanese view which seems to heavily demonize them.

Demonise is a bit strong, that’s not what I meant. Given that Soviet powers did their best to rid society of the best and freest thinkers, did their best to stifle dissent of any sort, the Japanese take is closer to reality, I would say. Only those either able to fake allegiance, totally without scruples or lacking any critical faculties were able to rise to the top for most of the Soviet period. As earlier, Kruschev was critical of Stalin, but he was very careful to remove any mention of his own involvement in all kinds of horrors from the secret speech and related documentation.

I think one key difference between any of these totalitarian powers and the US within the same timeframe is that, while the US visited terror on other nations, the Soviets, Chinese etc did it to their own citizens too, involving colossal numbers of people that dwarf even the massacres of Cambodians by the US Airforce. Millions were murdered, or otherwise killed through slave labour, starvation, or locked up or exiled for literally no reason at all under successive Soviet governments. I suppose the internment of ethnic Japanese Americans during WWII offers some comparison, but to make it a real comparison most of them would have had to been killed, starved to death, and put to work in the most horrendous conditions as slaves, and worked to death.

 

[Stevicus]

Being part of an empire is not the same as being part of the same country, if that’s what you’re asking.

Some time after the sacking of Kyiv and the gradual decline of the Mongol empire, the Muscovites unilaterally declared themselves the inheritors of Byzantium and Kyivan Rus. By any objective standard, this has only self-referential meaning. There are many other territories in Europe settled by people with some degree of shared ethnic background - although given that Ukraine is one of the most genetically diverse places in Europe on those grounds the claim is pretty thin - but countries have long since stopped (mostly) claiming the territory of other countries on that basis. Russia has no more claim on Ukrainian lands than Poland or Lithuania.

A key point about Muscovy is that their power built up as they were Mongols' designated tax collectors for that region of their empire. As the Mongol Empire waned, the Muscovite boyars became more powerful. For all intents and purposes, there was no "Ukraine" at that time. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth ruled that territory in the north (often referred to as "Ruthenia"), and the Ottoman Empire controlled the southern part. It was really the Ottoman Empire which was considered the big villain in Europe at the time. (The Ottomans also caused Columbus' voyages to America, launching the era of exploration and colonization.)

So, the borders were constantly changing and in flux, and even languages and cultures were changing due to different influences or people finding themselves under a different flag. Any kind of historical claim of ownership would be...complicated, to say the least.

 

[Tomef]

Solzhenitsyn can still love his country while severely criticizing it.

True, yes. I mean if you just take the literature, Russia is an incredible place. But take a closer look and it is riddled at the highest levels with utter morons, sycophants and sociopaths.

 

[Tomef]

A key point about Muscovy is that their power built up as they were Mongols' designated tax collectors for that region of their empire. As the Mongol Empire waned, the Muscovite boyars became more powerful. For all intents and purposes, there was no "Ukraine" at that time. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth ruled that territory in the north (often referred to as "Ruthenia"), and the Ottoman Empire controlled the southern part. It was really the Ottoman Empire which was considered the big villain in Europe at the time. (The Ottomans also caused Columbus' voyages to America, launching the era of exploration and colonization.)

So, the borders were constantly changing and in flux, and even languages and cultures were changing due to different influences or people finding themselves under a different flag. Any kind of historical claim of ownership would be...complicated, to say the least.

Well yes, there was no Russia either. The Kremlin’s fudging of ‘Rus’ with ‘historic Russian lands’ has no more meaning than any of the shifting borders within Europe, before the idea of a nation state became a real thing in anything like the modern sense.

 

[Tomef]

languages and cultures were changing

That’s a bit less true, the Ukrainian language has no less of a history than any other in that region. Ukrainian culture has many influences, sure, but cultures centre around geographical cores, and Ukrainian culture is no different. Kievan Rus was a major hub of culture, trade, religious diversity etc for long before there was any Russia. One of the major differences between Russian and Ukrainian culture is the influence of Cossack culture, with it’s focus on independence, freedom and democratic forms of rule, as opposed to the Russian adherence to totalitarianism, which is way older than communism. Ukrainians/Ruthenians were as distinct from the Hapsburgs, Poles and Lithuanians, as made evident by the regular attempts to suppress their language and other expressions of identity.

 

[Magic Man]

Engineered protests. They are not worth their name if they leave evidence behind.
Oh, sure, evidence must be there, it is impossible to erase all evidence. But I am not privy to that, Zelensky may have that.

What does this even mean?

Russia did not want Ukraine to join EU or NATO. Ukraine tried to do just that.

Sure. I don't want my neighbor to join the local pool. They tried to do just that. So, I broke into their house, beat them up and threw them out. They made an unwise move.

 

[Magic Man]

Russia did not want any part of Ukraine.

Uh, yes, it did and does.

It just wanted Ukraine to keep away from NATO and EU embrace. But Ukraine did the opposite and got the Russian response. Russia has the same problems with other countries too, and you know it.

You keep saying this, as if it's a reasonable take. It doesn't matter what Russia wants. Ukraine can do what it wants. If Russia doesn't like it, they don't have the right to invade. Ukraine did nothing wrong. Russia did.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Sure. I don't want my neighbor to join the local pool. They tried to do just that. So, I broke into their house, beat them up and threw them out. They made an unwise move.

So joining NATO is like joining a local pool. That is where Ukraine erred.

 

[Magic Man]

Zelensky should talk to Putin. Address his concerns. Then the scene could change. Or the war continues.

He has. Putin's concerns are Ukraine joining NATO and wanting at least part of Ukraine for Russia. Ukraine obviously doesn't want any of that. So, Russia's invasion continues unless they get what they want.