How Odd Is Putin's Russia?

[Aupmanyav]

So the Russian Parliment has made no laws concering the 5 regions in play?

Laws can be made and unmade.

 

[Magic Man]

That is true. You agree to it, and I agree to it. The root of the trouble is in NATO. I

Sure, NATO is the root of the trouble the same way the police are the root of the trouble when an abusive husband beats his wife for wanting to go to them to step him from beating her.

See if you can understand this finally:

Ukraine wanted to join NATO to protect themselves from exactly what is happening now. The root of the trouble is Russia. If Russia wasn't trying to control Ukraine and didn't threaten aggression, Ukraine wouldn't even need to worry about it or consider NATO. NATO is the helpful ally that Ukraine wants to go to to prevent exactly what Russia is doing.

Russia is the root of the problem. NATO is not.

I am not engaged in propaganda for Russia.

Yes, you are. You keep presenting these extremely pro-Russian anti-NATO narratives filled with falsehoods and ridiculous claims like "well, Ukraine deserved it".

Had they not wanted this, they would have escaped a war.

Yes, had Russia not wanted to control Ukraine and seize parts of it, Ukraine would have escaped war.

 

[Aupmanyav]

He has. Putin's concerns are Ukraine joining NATO and wanting at least part of Ukraine for Russia. Ukraine obviously doesn't want any of that. So, Russia's invasion continues unless they get what they want.

I do not believe that Russia wanted a part of Ukraine. But yes, they have occupied parts of Ukraine now. I do not think Russia will stop till they get what they want.

 

[Magic Man]

So joining NATO is like joining a local pool. That is where Ukraine erred.

No, that is where Russia erred. I have no say in what my neighbor does. They're welcome to join a pool, if they want. Them doing something I don't like doesn't give me the right to get violent with them.

Ukraine didn't err. Russia did. It would be best if you'd grasp this very basic concept.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Laws can be made and unmade.

So Russia has and hasn't made any changes to how it views parts of Ukraine? Is that your claim?

How about this?

Article by Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“

Article of the President of the Russian Federation V.V. Putin

www.prlib.ru

 

[Magic Man]

I do not believe that Russia wanted a part of Ukraine.

I know. Because you are very pro-Russia and buy into Putin's propaganda. The fact remains Russia has annexed parts of Ukraine, so whatever you believe is irrelevant in the face of that fact.

But yes, they have occupied parts of Ukraine now.

So, they've occupied parts of Ukraine, but they don't want a part of it. Makes sense.

I do not think Russia will stop till they get what they want.

Of course they won't. That's the problem. They're in the wrong, have been the whole time and won't stop until they get what they want. Russia is the problem, not Ukraine.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ukraine wanted to join NATO to protect themselves from exactly what is happening now.

No protection was needed if Ukraine would not have tried to join NATO. They brought the war on themselves.

 

[Aupmanyav]

How about this?

Article by Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“

Article of the President of the Russian Federation V.V. Putin

www.prlib.ru

That is war-talk. Does not mean anything.

 

[Magic Man]

No protection was needed if Ukraine would not have tried to join NATO. They brought the war on themselves.

It would be nice if you'd stop for a minute and actually listen, so you don't keep repeating this complete drivel.

Russia has no say in what Ukraine does.
Russia brought the war on Ukraine.
Ukraine wanted protection because of this exact problem.
Ukraine has every right to try to join NATO. Russia has no right at all to interfere with them.

Again, you're blaming the victim. "Well, she got raped because she wore revealing clothes. She brought this on herself." That's your logic, and it's disgusting. I'd suggest taking some time to think about things before continuing to spew this nonsense.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That is war-talk. Does not mean anything.

How do you know that?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I know. Because you are very pro-Russia and buy into Putin's propaganda. The fact remains Russia has annexed parts of Ukraine, so whatever you believe is irrelevant in the fact of that fact.

You don't understand me. I am an Indian. We are non-aligned. I am neither pro-NATO, nor pro-Russia. I have an independent view. I would be anti-Russia in the same measure if the situation demanded.
That is the advantage in being non-aligned. We can call a spade a spade.

 

[Aupmanyav]

How do you know that?

How do you know that it means something? It is our different reading of the situation. Many things are said during a war.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Well, she got raped because she wore revealing clothes. She brought this on herself."

That may be true in some cases.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

How do you know that it means something? It is our different reading of the situation. Many things are said during a war.

I don't know that it means anything on its own. I know it fits a certain cultural view all the way back to Muscowy.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That may be true in some cases.

Yeah, that explains a lot of how you are neutral.

 

[Stevicus]

Demonise is a bit strong, that’s not what I meant. Given that Soviet powers did their best to rid society of the best and freest thinkers, did their best to stifle dissent of any sort, the Japanese take is closer to reality, I would say. Only those either able to fake allegiance, totally without scruples or lacking any critical faculties were able to rise to the top for most of the Soviet period. As earlier, Kruschev was critical of Stalin, but he was very careful to remove any mention of his own involvement in all kinds of horrors from the secret speech and related documentation.

I think one key difference between any of these totalitarian powers and the US within the same timeframe is that, while the US visited terror on other nations, the Soviets, Chinese etc did it to their own citizens too, involving colossal numbers of people that dwarf even the massacres of Cambodians by the US Airforce. Millions were murdered, or otherwise killed through slave labour, starvation, or locked up or exiled for literally no reason at all under successive Soviet governments. I suppose the internment of ethnic Japanese Americans during WWII offers some comparison, but to make it a real comparison most of them would have had to been killed, starved to death, and put to work in the most horrendous conditions as slaves, and worked to death.

Well, comparisons can be a bit tricky. If we're just comparing body counts and atrocities and making a judgment of "who's worse," I don't know if that can really give much insight or shed any true light on history. At this point, I think most of the civilized world has denounced such atrocities and have agreed on what constitutes Crimes Against Humanity and have signed treaties and declarations of human rights in response to that. But even that hasn't really stopped such things from happening entirely, unfortunately.

I've done some reading on the Soviet period, visited there during the Gorbachev era, and talked to quite a number of people who have lived there. All in all, I would say I've heard mixed reviews. Some have spoken candidly, openly acknowledging the bad, but still pointing out the good. I did catch on to a somewhat xenophobic attitude, as they didn't really want to be seen talking to or associating with foreigners. That seemed to be their main bugaboo.

As far as difference with the U.S., one might say the timeframe is probably a major difference. The U.S. is a direct result of Western colonial expansionism, coupled with the rise of industrialism which gave a great advantage to the Western powers. I think most people are aware of what happened on the North American continent and the processes which took place, which led America to becoming the world's largest economy (among other things). Around the timeframe of the Stalinist era, the United States were pretty firmly established under a stable, democratic government which was becoming more liberal and progressive - relatively speaking. Though our history was still much romanticized and mythologized, from a very Euro-centric and white supremacist point of view - which was being seriously challenged, but not quite as loud as the challenges would be in subsequent decades.

America never really had any "gulags," per se, though we did have plantations, sharecropping, southern work farms (where troublemakers had to "spend a night in the box"). But at least it wasn't as cold as in Siberia. We also still have an Indian Reservation system in place, although it's changed quite a bit from its original form. In practice, as U.S. wealth and global power increased, there was more than enough excess wealth to better provide for the lower classes and become a more liberal and tolerant society. The post-WW2 economic boom was also coupled with strong movements towards labor reform, human rights, civil rights, equality, and other liberal and progressive causes.

In other words, countries and even political systems can have an ugly past, yet given enough time, they can reform and change themselves over the course of generations. We're not what we once were. We're not what we used to be. But then again, there are more than a few people out there who seem to want to go back to those old ways, so who knows what will happen?

 

[Stevicus]

True, yes. I mean if you just take the literature, Russia is an incredible place. But take a closer look and it is riddled at the highest levels with utter morons, sycophants and sociopaths.

Well, yes, they are human. One can find morons, sycophants, and sociopaths in any society. I can assure you there are plenty such people in my own country. But as with anything, there's the good and the bad.

 

[Tomef]

In other words, countries and even political systems can have an ugly past, yet given enough time, they can reform and change themselves over the course of generations

True, but the ruling powers in Moscow don’t see that as a good thing. They want to go backwards, not forwards. And for good reason - Russia is great for the rich and powerful, they can treat the whole country as their playground. All they need to do is keep the population ignorant and happy enough that they don’t mind being used up by the top brass. The whole notion of Russian ‘greatness’ seems to be a pretty effective opium.

 

[Tomef]

No protection was needed if Ukraine would not have tried to join NATO. They brought the war on themselves.

No, quite the opposite. NATO is the reason why Russia hasn’t tried to grab the Baltic states. The reason is Ukraine not being ready to join NATO when it first wanted to, after voting almost unanimously to sever the ties of its Soviet relationship with Russia, and the reasons for that are diverse and complex. If Ukraine had been in a position to join NATO at the same time as the other post-communist states, Russian would have been in no position to do anything much but protest.

 

[Tomef]

Well, yes, they are human. One can find morons, sycophants, and sociopaths in any society. I can assure you there are plenty such people in my own country. But as with anything, there's the good and the bad.

Sure, but at least in comparison with any European govt I’m familiar with, Russia’s has a much higher proportion of people without scruples. It isn’t referred to as a kleptocracy just as a slight, that’s a pretty accurate description.