How Odd Is Putin's Russia?

[Stevicus]

That’s only partially the case, at best. The Uniate church was much bigger in Ukraine before it fell under Russian domination, and the whole area was much more religiously diverse. What is it you think the similarities in language means? Almost all European languages come from one proto-language, which branched off into various forms, that has nothing to do with questions of national identity. Spain is not Italy, is not France, England is not Holland or Germany, Russia is not the Czech Republic. It’s a meaningless metric.

My point was that they are/were closely related to each other, suggesting that they come from similar cultural and ethnic roots. It's not a meaningless metric.

As for the Uniate church, it seemed Poland sabotaged that more than the Russians ever could have.

Ruthenian Uniate Church - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Poles regarded Ruthenians as a conquered people. As such, Ruthenians became a second class people in society, their culture backward compared to the other ethnic groups in the Commonwealth. This delayed the church in recovering from the predations of the Reformation. While the Ruthenian nobility had equal rights with the Polish nobility, by the fifteenth century their ranks had been thinned by war and waves of emigration to the east. The Poles who took their place came to control the sejm. If the Ruthenian aristocracy wanted to profit from its equality, it had to become Catholic and Polish. Intermarriage played a great role in the assimilation of the Ruthenian aristocracy; usually the Catholic faith prevailed. As a result, few Orthodox aristocratic families were left in Galicia or Podilia.[8] By the second half of the sixteenth century, Ruthenian nobility had little reason to feel discriminated against. They had kept their wealth, had access to the highest offices, and were socially accepted as equals with the Catholic nobility. By absorbing the Polish form of Western culture, they were also the first to be lost for the Ruthenian people. With the loss of the elite, the Ruthenian Church and people increasingly lost leadership, representation in the government, and benefactors for church-sponsored programmes.

 

[Stevicus]

I’m talking about the state, not the general population. There is more than enough evidence of corruption at the state level. Putin even acknowledges it, publicly, but dismisses it as ‘not a priority ’. Given that corruption is essentially how his government functions, there is little he could do about it without getting rid of his cronies and their dependents. I don’t think Putin is ‘in it for the money’ as such, be he has certainly done very well out of it.

I don't doubt that there's corruption in their system and at the highest levels of power. As I mentioned earlier, Putin seems more like some kind of mobster who rose to the top and became the "boss of all the bosses." But that's what makes it all the more inexplicable. The West has allied itself with plenty of corrupt, tinpot dictators all around the world - and they've ostensibly been mutually beneficial relationships. The dictators get wealthy from Western business interests, yet are usually content to stay within their own borders.

They didn't have to invade Ukraine if all they wanted was to get rich. Putin was already pretty wealthy anyway. I don't believe that Putin is any kind of would be "conqueror," as some are trying to paint him. He's a criminal, but this conflict appears more like a gang war that's gotten out of hand.

 

[Stevicus]

Was that during the early 2000s by any chance? I would say that was a pretty widespread attitude around that time, 2000-2010, with people who were v young at the end of the USSR growing towards middle age.

It was actually the late 1980s, during Gorbachev's era. It seemed that the big problem they had with Gorbachev was not really glasnost or perestroika, but he also implemented various anti-alcohol programs because alcoholism was a rampant problem. They limited the times you could buy alcohol and they limited the supply. That didn't really set well with a lot of people.

Gorbachev wanted to sober everyone up, but maybe it turned out that once they got sober, they collapsed the Soviet Union.

 

[Stevicus]

This is a tricky thing to pin down, as what is meant can differ a lot. After travelling to Silicon Valley, for example, Medvedev had a lot to say about setting up a Russian version. What he meant, though, was not a space for entrepreneurs but a state dominated techno-farm with jobs for the boys and money for the bosses, with everything very much under the watching over your shoulder aegis of the Kremlin.

I suppose something like that might be feasible in Russia. Or maybe it could have been. When the Iron Curtain fell and the Cold War ended, there were enormous opportunities which could have been mutually beneficial for all, if only we could have built up a better, friendlier relationship with Russia when that window of opportunity presented itself.

I did attend a lecture from an ex-KGB defector who said (in the 1980s) that the Soviet government was growing less concerned about problems with the West and more concerned about the resurgence of religious fundamentalism in the Middle East. The Soviet Union had territories and republics with a substantial Muslim population, and this was viewed as a potential threat. They also had fears about China. Under those circumstances, it would have made sense for them to have more normalized relations with the rest of Europe and the U.S. But somehow, it just didn't work out.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, I understand you fine. I don't care if you're Indian or anything else. You are not an independent view, and you are not calling a spade a spade. I'm not basing my comments on your personal traits or nationality. I'm basing it on your comments. You are extremely pro-Russia, anti-Ukraine and anti-NATO. Your biases influence your views a lot.

Yeah, my opinion is that NATO is responsible for the situation in Ukraine.
And like Stevicus says in the post above, things could have been different, but US was not ready to abandon its role as the 'world policeman'. That is what irks many people in the world.

 

[Tomef]

I suppose something like that might be feasible in Russia.

There’s a summary of the whole debacle here: Skolkovo: The story of Russia's failed Silicon Valley

I suppose when the cost of building highways and public is buildings massively inflated, as with the Sochi construction projects, to fill people’s pockets it’s just ‘business as usual’, but this was something intended to be a big step forward for Russia on the world stage. Could have been too, I suppose, but there’s no way anything involving a lot of money like this will ever work there until someone in power takes tackling corruption seriously.

That’s only part of the story. though. It’s also illustrative of how we interpret the pronouncements of people in govt in Russia. When Medvedev said he wanted a Russian Silicon Valley, we think of entrepreneurship, whereas in Russia the conception is totally different. It’s about a state-run enterprise with the specific aim of enriching those in power before anything else. That is the first thing, always, the first motivation behind every government action is to increase the power, prestige and wealth of the ruling elite. Putin and others frame this as ‘Russian greatness’, but really it’s about their greatness.

 

[Tomef]

They limited the times you could buy alcohol and they limited the supply.

Those same restrictions took me by surprise in Sweden. I wanted to get a bottle of wine, but found out you can only buy alcohol at certain shops and on certain days. Seems to have worked well there, in terms of reducing alcoholism. Russia is a different story altogether, I suppose.

 

[Maninthemiddle]

Biden hasn't carried out an unprovoked attack against a democratic nation nor is he responsible for any war crimes or violation of human rights. He also hasn't jailed, poisoned, or "disappeared" any political critics/rivals. Why embarrass yourself by making such ridiculous comparisons that no intelligent person would ever take seriously?

Biden is a Snake in the grass.
Child predator, politically corrupt, financially corrupt.
And is senile to top it off.

 

[Tomef]

They didn't have to invade Ukraine if all they wanted was to get rich. Putin was already pretty wealthy anyway. I don't believe that Putin is any kind of would be "conqueror," as some are trying to paint him. He's a criminal, but this conflict appears more like a gang war that's gotten out of hand.

It’s about empire. Without control of Ukraine, to the same extent Belorussia is controlled, Russia is no longer an empire. Once Ukraine goes, it’s only a matter of time before Georgia and then perhaps some of the Republics move away from the Federation. Perhaps even Belorussia will finally escape tyranny. Without it’s corrupting influence over other states, Russia would become less than what Obama called it, a regional power.

 

[Tomef]

My point was that they are/were closely related to each other, suggesting that they come from similar cultural and ethnic roots. It's not a meaningless metric.

As for the Uniate church, it seemed Poland sabotaged that more than the Russians ever could have.

Ruthenian Uniate Church - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well, it’s a mixed bag. Neither the Catholics nor the Eastern Orthodox liked the Uniate church much, as, shock horror, they promoted unity through compromise. Pretty much the whole Ruthenian population was Uniate at one point, and as the Greek Catholic church that faith still survives. The Poles did eventually accept that, and Imperial Russia tried to eliminate the church too, with limited success. Mostly importantly for this discussion, the Ruthenians actually created their own faith, and the attempt to dissolve this church was among the first acts of cultural genocide carried out by successive empires, the Polish and the Russian. This gives the lie to Putin’s random assertion that the ‘Russian peoples’ have always been orthodox.

My point was though that the often mentioned Eastern Orthodox cultural link is heavily contrived. For one thing, the grubby fingers of the Russian Orthodox bling squad are all over ongoing attempts at cultural genocide in Ukraine, to the extent of promising instant elevation to heaven to any ‘martyrs’ who ‘sacrifice’ by going there to kill Ukrainians. Even to the extent it is true, it no more forms a common culture than the Catholicism of Ireland, Spain, Italy, France etc. There’s a vague impression that floats around, probably the result of stealthy Russian propaganda in part, that Ukraine and Russia are united on religious grounds, but it simply isn't true. Russia did its best to eliminate Ukraine’s ’native’ faith, the particular brand of Christianity actually created within the territory of Ukraine. The Ukrainian Orthodox church has repeatedly sought to maintain independence from its Russian counterpart, not just recently but throughout its history. Typically, Russia simply ignores these facts. Putin’s lumping together of all Ukrainians and Russians sharing the same faith is factually and historically untrue.

Although the church likes to tie these things up with all kinds of mysterious spiritual baggage, Orthodoxy became the official religion of Keivan Rus because Islam forbids alcohol, Catholicism was seen as too heavy on ritual, Judaism too dour and the Orthodox had a fancy cathedral, Hagia Maria. These kinds of things are practical, political and pragmatic. Russia dresses it up to use as a propagandistic and political tool with the smoke and mirrors of religious double speak.

 

[Magic Man]

Yeah, my opinion is that NATO is responsible for the situation in Ukraine.

Right. And your opinion is wrong and based on your anti-NATO bias, not reality.

And like Stevicus says in the post above, things could have been different, but US was not ready to abandon its role as the 'world policeman'. That is what irks many people in the world.

The first problem here is listening to Stevicus. He also has a very pro-Russia, anti-NATO bias, so I understand why his comments would appeal to you, but they aren't good for rational discussion of the issue. He ignores me now because I've pointed this out so many times and won't let him get away with his ahistorical narratives.

This could have been different if Russia had not decided to meddle in Ukraine's affairs. It has nothing to do with the U.S. or "world policeman". Russia is at fault. They alone are the reason this is happening, and they are the ones who can and should stop it.

 

[Magic Man]

Biden is a Snake in the grass.
Child predator, politically corrupt, financially corrupt.
And is senile to top it off.

The good news is this type of ridiculous anti-reality rhetoric is useless now, since Biden is not running again.

 

[Magic Man]

They didn't have to invade Ukraine if all they wanted was to get rich. Putin was already pretty wealthy anyway. I don't believe that Putin is any kind of would be "conqueror," as some are trying to paint him. He's a criminal, but this conflict appears more like a gang war that's gotten out of hand.

It's not about getting rich. It's about control. Putin doesn't want to let go of the USSR. Whether or not you believe it, Putin is a sort of would-be conqueror. This conflict is not a gang war. That would imply multiple criminal groups on relatively equal standing all vying for supremacy of the territory where they can conduct their criminal enterprises.

This is Putin wanting to control Ukraine and annex at least part of it officially. This is Putin wanting at least some semblance of the USSR to remain.

 

[Estro Felino]

It's not about getting rich. It's about control. Putin doesn't want to let go of the USSR. Whether or not you believe it, Putin is a sort of would-be conqueror. This conflict is not a gang war. That would imply multiple criminal groups on relatively equal standing all vying for supremacy of the territory where they can conduct their criminal enterprises.

This is Putin wanting to control Ukraine and annex at least part of it officially. This is Putin wanting at least some semblance of the USSR to remain.

This narrative is as credible as the stories told by Honest John and Gideon the cat.
If we Europeans were gullible, we would believe them. We are not, dear sir.

 

[Tomef]

It's not about getting rich. It's about control. Putin doesn't want to let go of the USSR. Whether or not you believe it, Putin is a sort of would-be conqueror. This conflict is not a gang war. That would imply multiple criminal groups on relatively equal standing all vying for supremacy of the territory where they can conduct their criminal enterprises.

This is Putin wanting to control Ukraine and annex at least part of it officially. This is Putin wanting at least some semblance of the USSR to remain.

I tend to think Putin is a ‘true believer’. He identifies the good with what is good for Russia, which in his mind it seems is what is also good for the Russian people, which has something to do with sacrifice for what he sees as the greater good.

There are cracks in that, though. In a convo with Saakashvili he went off on a rant about the CIA stirring up unrest in Georgia. Saakashvilli asked him something to the effect of ‘do you really believe that we Georgians are incapable of having motivations of our own to seek self-rule’, forcing Putin to admit the strangeness of his assumptions. He let his head of intelligence convince him that the CIA was behind the orange revolution, and that Ukrainians would welcome their Russian ‘liberators’, which indicates a certain detachment from reality, or just very poor judgement. I don’t imagine he actually believes there are Nazis in charge in Kyiv, but I think he believes that is ‘true’ in some broader sense. Like an abusive husband who believes his ex’s new friends have poisoned her against him, he appears to genuinely believe that Ukraine wanting to be part of Europe is the result of some mysterious and malign influence. He really does appear to believe in his pseudo-religious, medieval notion of ‘values’, but those values are deeply rooted in the mythological narratives about Russia he grew up with. All in all, a pretty toxic mix.

 

[Magic Man]

This narrative is as credible as the stories told by Honest John and Gideon the cat.

Thanks, but the opinion of the person who freely admits to loving Putin and his propaganda doesn't mean a whole lot here.

If we Europeans were retards, we would believed them. We are not, dear sir.

Yeah, maybe it's because of the language barrier, but maybe don't use that R word. It's offensive.

As to your main point, most Europeans are informed enough to not fall for Putin's propaganda, so they acknowledge the reality that I just presented. You and some others prefer your Russian propaganda to reality, though.

 

[Magic Man]

I tend to think Putin is a ‘true believer’. He identifies the good with what is good for Russia, which in his mind it seems is what is also good for the Russian people, which has something to do with sacrifice for what he sees as the greater good.

There are cracks in that, though. In a convo with Saakashvili he went off on a rant about the CIA stirring up unrest in Georgia. Saakashvilli asked him something to the effect of ‘do you really believe that we Georgians are incapable of having motivations of our own to seek self-rule’, forcing Putin to admit the strangeness of his assumptions. He let his head of intelligence convince him that the CIA was behind the orange revolution, and that Ukrainians would welcome their Russian ‘liberators’, which indicates a certain detachment from reality, or just very poor judgement. I don’t imagine he actually believes there are Nazis in charge in Kyiv, but I think he believes that is ‘true’ in some broader sense. Like an abusive husband who believes his ex’s new friends have poisoned her against him, he appears to genuinely believe that Ukraine wanting to be part of Europe is the result of some mysterious and malign influence. He really does appear to believe in his pseudo-religious, medieval notion of ‘values’, but those values are deeply rooted in the mythological narratives about Russia he grew up with. All in all, a pretty toxic mix.

That's possible. I tend to take the other approach and think he's more cynical than that, and that all of that is more about pretenses than what he actually believes. It's a lot like much of right-wing media these days. Are they saying such crazy things just to make money and gain power, or do they truly believe them? It's impossible to say for sure in their cases and Putin's, so you might well be right.

 

[Estro Felino]

Thanks, but the opinion of the person who freely admits to loving Putin and his propaganda doesn't mean a whole lot here.

I love Europe.
And I love all the people who love Europe.

Yeah, maybe it's because of the language barrier, but maybe don't use that R word. It's offensive.

You claim that the United States are interested in the Ukraine War because they are all philanthropists.
Whereas even cats here know that USA just wants to conquer Russia and to seize its resources.

As to your main point, most Europeans are informed enough to not fall for Putin's propaganda, so they acknowledge the reality that I just presented. You and some others prefer your Russian propaganda to reality, though.

The results of the latest EU elections say the opposite...for the record.

 

[Tomef]

You claim that the United States are interested in the Ukraine War because they are all philanthropists.
Whereas even cats here know that USA just wants to conquer Russia and to seize its resources.

That’s the problem with your thinking right there. You believe everything can be divided between one extreme view and another. That is not how reality works. The only way to align your thinking with reality is to get into detailed analysis. Spend a few months digging deep on a site like DeepDyve (they do free trials), where you can access real scholarship and develop an understanding of how the world works.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...

The results of the latest EU elections say the opposite...for the record.

Here are the results of the EU election. A majority of parties are not in favor of Putin:

https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/european-parliament-election/