How Odd Is Putin's Russia?

[Estro Felino]

Well, the point of your claim was the far right won the majority in the EU elections. They didn't.

The EPP is not the Left.
The Left considers war against Russia possible. The EPP ruled that out.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The EPP is not the Left.
The Left considers war against Russia possible. The EPP ruled that out.

That is not the point. The point is this and that it to some degree could continue.

EU Assistance to Ukraine (in U.S. Dollars)

Last updated September 4, 2024. To view a PDF version, please click here. The European Union (EU) and our 27 Member States remain united and determined in our unprecedented support for Ukraine. Since the start of the war, the EU and our Member States have made available over $126 billion* in...

www.eeas.europa.eu

 

[Stevicus]

There’s a summary of the whole debacle here: Skolkovo: The story of Russia's failed Silicon Valley

I suppose when the cost of building highways and public is buildings massively inflated, as with the Sochi construction projects, to fill people’s pockets it’s just ‘business as usual’, but this was something intended to be a big step forward for Russia on the world stage. Could have been too, I suppose, but there’s no way anything involving a lot of money like this will ever work there until someone in power takes tackling corruption seriously.

That’s only part of the story. though. It’s also illustrative of how we interpret the pronouncements of people in govt in Russia. When Medvedev said he wanted a Russian Silicon Valley, we think of entrepreneurship, whereas in Russia the conception is totally different. It’s about a state-run enterprise with the specific aim of enriching those in power before anything else. That is the first thing, always, the first motivation behind every government action is to increase the power, prestige and wealth of the ruling elite. Putin and others frame this as ‘Russian greatness’, but really it’s about their greatness.

Well, you've just described capitalism in a nutshell. Every business in the world has been started to make money and enrich people. Whether it's run by commissars or pin-striped bosses, it functions in basically the same manner with the same goal. Everyone wants to make money. Costs are incredibly inflated here in the U.S., too. Everyone's got their hand in the cookie jar. That's why the roads in my own state are in such dismal condition. Then there's the Defense Department and their million-dollar toilet seats.

As for Silicon Valley, it had been a center for industry and technology for quite some time before it was actually called that. I don't think there was any kind of grand pronouncement where they said "Let's build Silicon Valley here." If the Russians were trying to imitate something like that and build it from scratch, I can see why it didn't work out.

 

[Tomef]

Sounds like something Kissinger would say. Realpolitik, he would say.
Well...I believe Kissinger is in that circle that Dante Alighieri used to call the bolgia of barrators, I guess.

Unfortunately my religion orders me to split the world in two categories. The wicked and the just.

Not realpolitik, reality. Religions of that sort are at the heart of the world’s problems. Each identifies the other as ‘the wicked’. both being equally wrong, and from time to time they start killing each other to prove to themselves they are right. It’s a backward, immature way to look at life, and has nothing to do with anything real.

 

[Stevicus]

Those same restrictions took me by surprise in Sweden. I wanted to get a bottle of wine, but found out you can only buy alcohol at certain shops and on certain days. Seems to have worked well there, in terms of reducing alcoholism. Russia is a different story altogether, I suppose.

I didn't know they had such restrictions in Sweden. Here, it varies from state to state.

 

[Tomef]

Well, you've just described capitalism in a nutshell. Every business in the world has been started to make money and enrich people. Whether it's run by commissars or pin-striped bosses, it functions in basically the same manner with the same goal. Everyone wants to make money. Costs are incredibly inflated here in the U.S., too. Everyone's got their hand in the cookie jar. That's why the roads in my own state are in such dismal condition. Then there's the Defense Department and their million-dollar toilet seats.

As for Silicon Valley, it had been a center for industry and technology for quite some time before it was actually called that. I don't think there was any kind of grand pronouncement where they said "Let's build Silicon Valley here." If the Russians were trying to imitate something like that and build it from scratch, I can see why it didn't work out.

Sort of, but there are no comparisons of absolutes, only of degree. Lobbying in the US for example is a kind of legalised bribery, and bungs and backhanders, and favours etc, happen everywhere. Russia is, though, at the extreme end, to the point that it puts serious limits on the ability of the country to function and develop. Check out the Sochi mess, for example,

The point with Russia’s Silicon Valley is the different conception. Imagine if members of congress gave themselves jobs running the various tech companies, skimming off most of the profit for themselves, hired favourites for many of the roles, exploited the brightest and made random decisions about the direction of R&D based on what they see as short term gain for themselves. Then you’d have something comparable.

 

[Estro Felino]

That is not the point. The point is this and that it to some degree could continue.

EU Assistance to Ukraine (in U.S. Dollars)

Last updated September 4, 2024. To view a PDF version, please click here. The European Union (EU) and our 27 Member States remain united and determined in our unprecedented support for Ukraine. Since the start of the war, the EU and our Member States have made available over $126 billion* in...

www.eeas.europa.eu

I hope they continue.
So there is an European revolution and the elitist EU is dismantled like a Lego building.

 

[Estro Felino]

Not realpolitik, reality. Religions of that sort are at the heart of the world’s problems. Each identifies the other as ‘the wicked’. both being equally wrong, and from time to time they start killing each other to prove to themselves they are right. It’s a backward, immature way to look at life, and has nothing to do with anything real.

The lords of war are childish and immature. They believe they are immortal. Yet we all will die of old age...and face the godly tribunal.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I hope they continue.
So there is an European revolution and the elitist EU is dismantled like a Lego building.

Yeah, we don't have the same understanding of reality.

 

[Stevicus]

It’s about empire. Without control of Ukraine, to the same extent Belorussia is controlled, Russia is no longer an empire. Once Ukraine goes, it’s only a matter of time before Georgia and then perhaps some of the Republics move away from the Federation. Perhaps even Belorussia will finally escape tyranny. Without it’s corrupting influence over other states, Russia would become less than what Obama called it, a regional power.

What's the point of having an "empire" in this day and age? Even in the U.S., one might hear people talk about the "American Empire," but often in the context of it being in a state of decline. The British Empire, the French Empire, the German Empire, the Japanese Empire, and the Russian Empire all folded up. The Russian Empire was ostensibly transformed into what we called the Soviet Union, which also eventually folded. We don't live in the Age of Empires anymore, so it makes no sense that they would want an "empire."

In essence, we should all be regional powers anyway. There's no reason for a single power or faction to have global control (or global policing authority). That kind of power can be shared by the regional powers which would theoretically be in agreement on international treaties and international law.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It has nothing to do with the U.S. or "world policeman".

I am not sure of that.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What's the point of having an "empire" in this day and age? Even in the U.S., one might hear people talk about the "American Empire," but often in the context of it being in a state of decline. The British Empire, the French Empire, the German Empire, the Japanese Empire, and the Russian Empire all folded up. The Russian Empire was ostensibly transformed into what we called the Soviet Union, which also eventually folded. We don't live in the Age of Empires anymore, so it makes no sense that they would want an "empire."

In essence, we should all be regional powers anyway. There's no reason for a single power or faction to have global control (or global policing authority). That kind of power can be shared by the regional powers which would theoretically be in agreement on international treaties and international law.

Well, you do understand that if they want or don't want an empire, it is not decided by whether it makes sense to you or not.
That is the problem I have with some of your reasoning. It is based on how it makes sense to you and don't take into acoount that it can make sense differently to other people. That is how I understand some of your posts and yes, you can understand that differently.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, you do understand that if they want or don't want an empire, it is not decided by whether it makes sense to you or not.
That is the problem I have with some of your reasoning. It is based on how it makes sense to you and don't take into account that it can make sense differently to other people. That is how I understand some of your posts and yes, you can understand that differently.

Russians do not want an empire, but they also do not want to be dominated by American/NATO machinations - just like Ukraine which did not want Russian domination. Many countries, including India too, would not like American domination.
You understand Ukraine's viewpoint but you do not want to understand the Russian viewpoint.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

They do not want an empire, but they also do not want to be defeated by American/NATO machinations - just like Ukraine which did not want Russian domination.
You understand Ukraine's viewpoint but you do not want to understand the Russian viewpoint.

Yeah, we have a different understanding of the world.
And it is Russia's fault that the West wants to rape her. She should just let us do it. So you are protecting Russia, when it is their fault as they are resisting.

 

[Tomef]

What's the point of having an "empire" in this day and age? Even in the U.S., one might hear people talk about the "American Empire," but often in the context of it being in a state of decline. The British Empire, the French Empire, the German Empire, the Japanese Empire, and the Russian Empire all folded up. The Russian Empire was ostensibly transformed into what we called the Soviet Union, which also eventually folded. We don't live in the Age of Empires anymore, so it makes no sense that they would want an "empire."

In essence, we should all be regional powers anyway. There's no reason for a single power or faction to have global control (or global policing authority). That kind of power can be shared by the regional powers which would theoretically be in agreement on international treaties and international law.

Lots of things don't make sense lol. MAGA might be a bit of a side show in the US, in Russia it's the whole deal, for Putinists at least. There is no 'great' Russia without Ukraine, and once Ukraine is free the whole house of cards is likely to fall. The most unfortunate thing is that Russia won't give up its imperial identity without a long and bloody fight.

Imagine if Germany began making noises about its sphere of influence, and its near abroad? Threatening and intimidating neighbouring countries? I should imagine most people would find that alarming. But when Russia does it, somehow it is seen as a victim.

 

[Kathryn]

Well, it’s a mixed bag. Neither the Catholics nor the Eastern Orthodox liked the Uniate church much, as, shock horror, they promoted unity through compromise. Pretty much the whole Ruthenian population was Uniate at one point, and as the Greek Catholic church that faith still survives. The Poles did eventually accept that, and Imperial Russia tried to eliminate the church too, with limited success. Mostly importantly for this discussion, the Ruthenians actually created their own faith, and the attempt to dissolve this church was among the first acts of cultural genocide carried out by successive empires, the Polish and the Russian. This gives the lie to Putin’s random assertion that the ‘Russian peoples’ have always been orthodox.

My point was though that the often mentioned Eastern Orthodox cultural link is heavily contrived. For one thing, the grubby fingers of the Russian Orthodox bling squad are all over ongoing attempts at cultural genocide in Ukraine, to the extent of promising instant elevation to heaven to any ‘martyrs’ who ‘sacrifice’ by going there to kill Ukrainians. Even to the extent it is true, it no more forms a common culture than the Catholicism of Ireland, Spain, Italy, France etc. There’s a vague impression that floats around, probably the result of stealthy Russian propaganda in part, that Ukraine and Russia are united on religious grounds, but it simply isn't true. Russia did its best to eliminate Ukraine’s ’native’ faith, the particular brand of Christianity actually created within the territory of Ukraine. The Ukrainian Orthodox church has repeatedly sought to maintain independence from its Russian counterpart, not just recently but throughout its history. Typically, Russia simply ignores these facts. Putin’s lumping together of all Ukrainians and Russians sharing the same faith is factually and historically untrue.

Although the church likes to tie these things up with all kinds of mysterious spiritual baggage, Orthodoxy became the official religion of Keivan Rus because Islam forbids alcohol, Catholicism was seen as too heavy on ritual, Judaism too dour and the Orthodox had a fancy cathedral, Hagia Maria. These kinds of things are practical, political and pragmatic. Russia dresses it up to use as a propagandistic and political tool with the smoke and mirrors of religious double speak.

I just wanted to point out that the Orthodox Church of Ukraine was started at the end of 2018. The autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church was founded in 1919.

Головна сторінка - OCU

www.pomisna.info

 

[Stevicus]

Well, it’s a mixed bag. Neither the Catholics nor the Eastern Orthodox liked the Uniate church much, as, shock horror, they promoted unity through compromise. Pretty much the whole Ruthenian population was Uniate at one point, and as the Greek Catholic church that faith still survives. The Poles did eventually accept that, and Imperial Russia tried to eliminate the church too, with limited success. Mostly importantly for this discussion, the Ruthenians actually created their own faith, and the attempt to dissolve this church was among the first acts of cultural genocide carried out by successive empires, the Polish and the Russian. This gives the lie to Putin’s random assertion that the ‘Russian peoples’ have always been orthodox.

My point was though that the often mentioned Eastern Orthodox cultural link is heavily contrived. For one thing, the grubby fingers of the Russian Orthodox bling squad are all over ongoing attempts at cultural genocide in Ukraine, to the extent of promising instant elevation to heaven to any ‘martyrs’ who ‘sacrifice’ by going there to kill Ukrainians. Even to the extent it is true, it no more forms a common culture than the Catholicism of Ireland, Spain, Italy, France etc. There’s a vague impression that floats around, probably the result of stealthy Russian propaganda in part, that Ukraine and Russia are united on religious grounds, but it simply isn't true. Russia did its best to eliminate Ukraine’s ’native’ faith, the particular brand of Christianity actually created within the territory of Ukraine. The Ukrainian Orthodox church has repeatedly sought to maintain independence from its Russian counterpart, not just recently but throughout its history. Typically, Russia simply ignores these facts. Putin’s lumping together of all Ukrainians and Russians sharing the same faith is factually and historically untrue.

Although the church likes to tie these things up with all kinds of mysterious spiritual baggage, Orthodoxy became the official religion of Keivan Rus because Islam forbids alcohol, Catholicism was seen as too heavy on ritual, Judaism too dour and the Orthodox had a fancy cathedral, Hagia Maria. These kinds of things are practical, political and pragmatic. Russia dresses it up to use as a propagandistic and political tool with the smoke and mirrors of religious double speak.

I get what you're saying, as religious differences within a state are a tough nut to solve. The Russians themselves, particularly the Bolsheviks, also had problems with the Russian Orthodox Church. It's all the more reason to favor separation of church and state. I recall Dostoevsky's story about "The Grand Inquisitor" which gave some insight into his views of the Western Roman Church. "Miracle, Mystery, and Authority."

Too bad about what happened to the Byzantine Empire. I've heard the Moscow "Third Rome" thesis, where Rome was obviously the first Rome, then Constantinople as the center of the Eastern Roman Empire, but when that city fell, Moscow became the third Rome. At least that's how they saw it. Of course, one might say it's a bit arrogant to consider oneself the center of Orthodox Christianity, but for a time, they were the only independent country which was Orthodox. Greece and the Orthodox states in the Balkans were ruled by the Ottomans. It was a bad scene for a while and left a lot of residual damage which still affects events of today.

The NATO countries seem to take a more secular approach and support religious freedom - and I think they would probably rather that these religious squabbles go away. It seems to have the effect of spreading to other countries.

 

[Tomef]

I just wanted to point out that the Orthodox Church of Ukraine was started at the end of 2018. The autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church was founded in 1919.

Головна сторінка - OCU

www.pomisna.info

Ok, well thanks for dropping in a random fact. Is it just that, or do you have a point to make?


For a longer history, Orthodoxy was adopted in what is now Ukraine in 988. Kyiv was attacked and religious artefacts looted by raiders from what is now the Moscow region in Russia in the early 12th century, Rulers in that region started claiming to be the 'real' orthodox seat in the 15th C, and separate Moscow and Kyiv based diocese were declared in 1438/9. Moscow started referring to itself as the third Rome about a decade after that. Constantinople was bribed into accepting this designation about a century later. It was between these dates that Ruthenian rulers fought for independence from Poland. Being partly of Orthodox faith, they appealed to Russia for help, and eventually ended up being subjected by Russia in turn. In the 17th C, the Ukrainian church was subordinated to the Russian patriarchy (1686), a decision that was only reversed in 2018, which is what you are referring to as the Ukrainian Orthodox Church being 'started'.

 

[Kathryn]

It's a random fact, and a fact all the same. @Tomef Actually, it's two facts.

 

[Maninthemiddle]

The good news is this type of ridiculous anti-reality rhetoric is useless now, since Biden is not running again.

You still deny that his senility is a reality.