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How Odd Is Putin's Russia?

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
America is a very odd place. Your country has almost certainly been directly involved in just as many wars, funded as many insurrections, supported as many barbarous regimes, as Russia has in the last 60 years.

How much does the USA spend on arms every year? How many of it’s own citizens has it executed recently? How many Americans have been shot dead in the last decade, by other Americans, and by the police?
I would never claim that U.S. is perfect, but we're talking present day. You wouldn't claim that the Mai Lai massacre of the U.S./Veitnam conflict gives Russian troops the green light to rape, torture, and murder children, would you?
 
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Father Heathen

Veteran Member
At least Biden didn't start a new war as President. But saying he isn't responsible for any war crimes or violations of human rights is a lie. He voted for the Iraq war, he hasn't closed Guantanamo yet and he didn't exactly work hard against it.
Putin is the Monster of the Week because his immoral actions are the latest to occur in the news. Give Biden the chance and next weeks monster may be him.
I'm not a fan of Biden. He too deserves criticism and comeuppance for any heinous wrong doing he may guilty of as well.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
To be fair, if we count his support for the invasion of Iraq, then he partially is. Whether his vote for the war was based on negligence/inexcusable ignorance/indifference to U.S. aggression or a genuine mistake despite having good intentions and doing his due diligence is a different story, though.
Point taken. Not that it makes much difference to the victims, but that was probably more bandwagon than bloodlust.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Did you watch the video?
Or is it about whataboutism to defend Putin?

It seems that on RF, any criticism of Putin or Russia
immediately deflects to sins of Ameristan. Does this
hatred run so deep that even the invasion of Ukraine,
the slaughter of civilians, the bombing of homes is
defended thus?

There's a flaw in your logic here. I actually pointed this out in a thread I did recently about the general subject of "Whataboutism."

For one thing, I have not seen any posts which have openly cheered for or supported the invasion of Ukraine, the slaughter of civilians, or the bombing of homes. No one has said that these are good or positive things. No one is defending it directly, as far as I can tell. Unless you would care to point out any post or thread where you have observed this, I can't accept your extrapolations here as valid.

I think everyone up and down the political spectrum is in general agreement that this is a terrible, horrific atrocity that never should have happened.

It also has nothing to do with hatred of Ameristan. This is also a red herring, since it's more about opposition of our own government's response to this situation, as well as the role our government has played in the past few decades which led us to the point we're at now. You and I have discussed the warmongering of our government numerous times in the past, so I can't believe you're trying to play coy about it now. Why not just face up to it?

I don't see it as a deflection. Just because someone says something about America's government, it doesn't change the reality of what's happening in the Ukraine. You see it as some kind of rhetorical trick, yet others might see it as a practicing of the principle of "judge not, lest ye be judged." It's the idea that we are all "sinners" and therefore we should not judge the splinter in others' eyes. It still seems a sound principle, even for those of us who don't believe in the religion itself.

I don't see why it's so difficult to understand this.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
There's a flaw in your logic here. I actually pointed this out in a thread I did recently about the general subject of "Whataboutism."

For one thing, I have not seen any posts which have openly cheered for or supported the invasion of Ukraine, the slaughter of civilians, or the bombing of homes. No one has said that these are good or positive things. No one is defending it directly, as far as I can tell. Unless you would care to point out any post or thread where you have observed this, I can't accept your extrapolations here as valid.

I think everyone up and down the political spectrum is in general agreement that this is a terrible, horrific atrocity that never should have happened.

It also has nothing to do with hatred of Ameristan. This is also a red herring, since it's more about opposition of our own government's response to this situation, as well as the role our government has played in the past few decades which led us to the point we're at now. You and I have discussed the warmongering of our government numerous times in the past, so I can't believe you're trying to play coy about it now. Why not just face up to it?

I don't see it as a deflection. Just because someone says something about America's government, it doesn't change the reality of what's happening in the Ukraine. You see it as some kind of rhetorical trick, yet others might see it as a practicing of the principle of "judge not, lest ye be judged." It's the idea that we are all "sinners" and therefore we should not judge the splinter in others' eyes. It still seems a sound principle, even for those of us who don't believe in the religion itself.

I don't see why it's so difficult to understand this.

I was mostly in agreement with your points until the part about judging. No, I believe we should judge and condemn war crimes like those taking place in Ukraine. Instead of refraining from condemning such flagrant atrocities lest we also be judged, perhaps it is more reasonable to instead do our best so that when we're judged fairly, we aren't guilty of atrocities too.

Also, one needn't directly defend the slaughter of civilians in order to be standing on shaky ethical grounds: there are many ways to indirectly--sometimes inadvertently--lend credence to or justification for heinous acts without coming right out and saying one defends or supports them. If I argued that Russia had "strategic reasons" to invade Ukraine and shell cities, I wouldn't directly be defending the murder of civilians, but I would be playing into the hands of Russian propaganda and still justifying an action that paved the way for said murder.

Intentions of people who defend Putin may differ, but the end result is often the same: any attempt to justify his invasion more often than not ends up being a justification for so many other atrocities, whether intentionally or not. Many who defended the U.S. invasions of Vietnam and Iraq also thought the U.S. was fighting for freedom and defending innocents. That didn't change the actual outcomes of either war.
 
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Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I didn't say Biden wasn't ****, but he certainly isn't Putin.
Do you think torturing, raping, and murdering civilians - even babies - would be as endemic with U.S. troops?

It was certainly common enough in Iraq and Gitmo. Nonetheless, I agree that Biden isn't Putin and that Putin has no excuse for what he has done.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I was mostly in agreement with your points until the part about judging. No, I believe we should judge and condemn war crimes like those taking place in Ukraine. Instead of refraining from condemning such flagrant atrocities lest we also be judged, perhaps it is more reasonable to instead do our best so that when we're judged fairly, we aren't guilty of atrocities too.

Also, one needn't directly defend the slaughter of civilians in order to be standing on shaky ethical grounds: there are many ways to indirectly--sometimes inadvertently--lend credence to or justification for heinous acts without coming right out and saying one defends or supports them. If I argued that Russia had "strategic reasons" to invade Ukraine and shell cities, I wouldn't directly be defending the murder of civilians, but I would be playing into the hands of Russian propaganda and still justifying an action that paved the way for said murder.

Intentions of people who defend Putin may differ, but the end result is often the same: any attempt to justify his invasion more often than not ends up being a justification for so many other atrocities, whether intentionally or not. Many who defended the U.S. invasions of Vietnam and Iraq also thought the U.S. was fighting for freedom and defending innocents. That didn't change the actual outcomes of either war.

Ultimately, if and when Putin is ever judged, it would presumably be by some international tribunal in a formal legal setting. (At least, that's what we can hope for.) So, yes, I agree with you that there should be judgment and legal retribution for these atrocities, but not by "us" or any single government. All too often, the U.S. government has acted unilaterally and recklessly when it comes to responding to world events, and it's for this reason that some of us may be a bit wary of those who seem to be heading in that direction.

Another area of contention which appears common is disagreement over whether the interpretation of the events in question is accurate. In every war, there is bombing, death of civilians, abhorrent behavior by some of the troops towards the local population, atrocities, rape, murder. Even "our" side has done it, although we might claim that we do it less than the "other" side.

Moreover, when one or more of our soldiers goes rogue, we prosecute them to the full extent of the law (although that's another topic in itself). We do our due diligence, or at least, give the appearance of such. But it seems quite clear that the Russians aren't doing this, or perhaps Putin is even ordering his troops to commit these atrocities. So, if there's an answer to the question of "whataboutism," then there it is.

But that doesn't really change the situation at hand.

Another aspect about this is the notion that there is no morality when it comes to geopolitics. That's kind of a "realpolitik" view which views the world from a coldly business-like, pragmatic standpoint. It's more focused on national interests than on morality. Or as Thomas Jefferson put it "Money, not morality, is the principle commerce of civilized nations." That's perhaps related to the idea of judging, but also looking at it from the standpoint of an individual country's national interests and how it may affect their response to world events.

It's probably more of an ethical question, but I don't see it as a matter of "defending Putin," as some people seem to be a bit too loose with those kinds of accusations. I see it more as a matter of questioning whether our own government's response to this crisis has been rational and responsible, both in terms of our role as a NATO partner but also in terms of our overall national interests.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
There's a flaw in your logic here. I actually pointed this out in a thread I did recently about the general subject of "Whataboutism."

For one thing, I have not seen any posts which have openly cheered for or supported the invasion of Ukraine, the slaughter of civilians, or the bombing of homes.
There's a flaw in your logic, ie, you miss the subtlety
of defending Putin's invasion, & excusing the war
crimes by deflection & whataboutism. There's no
other reason for changing the topic.
BTW, I didn't even get into "false equivalency".
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Regarding Afghanistan, don't confuse timidity with recognizing
reality, & abandoning a lost cause. Biden did what needed
to be done.
2 decades ago, we went there to fix that ****hole country.
A decade ago, Obama promised to exit. He stayed & surged.
Trump had a schedule to get us out. But he stayed.
Everyone thought the Afghan government could resist the
Taliban if we left. Its rapid collapse was a complete surprise.
Would another 20 years finally fix people who wouldn't even
defend their own country? Nah. But even if it would work,
would it be worth the cost? Nah.

It's a common criticism that people died because we left.
But had we stayed, it would be a common criticism that
people continue dying because we won't leave.
Don't criticize choosing one option without considering the
consequences of the other.

The U.S. didn't go there to fix a "****hole country"; it went there chasing after bin Laden and then overstayed its welcome, with things only going downhill from there. There was ample time to leave the country in a better state, but as far as Biden's withdrawal goes, I think a lot of ships had sailed and he had to work with that knowledge instead of staying even longer and, as you said, prolonging a lost cause.

Afghanistan wasn't a "****hole country" as it is today before it suffered repeated interventionism, military aggression, and radicalization. I'm not inclined to demonize Afghans or imply they don't want to defend themselves considering the litany of issues that have plagued the country for decades. Any country in its place probably wouldn't fare much better given the circumstances.
 

Regiomontanus

Eastern Orthodox
Set aside the humor of Putin walking in to Darth Vader's Imperial March.
Consider the short man (a little Napoleon) entering the huge fabulously
gilded palace. His right arm largely immobile, while the left one swings.
Watch all the froufrou uniformed guards as all in unison, they so formally
turn their uplifted gaze slowly & synchronously in Putin's direction as he
passes, making his way toward into the palace.
It all suggests that if Napoleon, Caligula, Hitler, & Stalin mixed their DNA
together to create an unholy spawn, it would be Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.

Not odd at all, actually. Have you studied ancient history? The Byzantine court was much more elaborate (imagine standing there for an hour while mainly eunuchs sang your praises for an hour, just so that you could meet with a foreign leader).

And considering the origin of the Russian people (runs right through ancient Byzantium, in their conversion to Christianity in the 9th century), and the fantasies running through Putin's head, no, not odd or weird in any way. Quite natural. But it runs against the Western, liberal world-view so is, apparently, unrecognizable to most of public.

A matter of perspective.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
It's My Birthday!
Self defense is always such an immoral thing, eh.
When attacked, tis best to avoid violence...just give up, submit to aggression, & give up property & freedom.
Just who do those silly Ukrainians think they are, denying Putin what he desires?
Don't the Ukranians want peace? Talk. No! Carry on. Does not affect me.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
That's a thing I don't hold against Biden. Trump brokered the deal with the Taliban and Biden managed to get a one time delay. Trying to delay further could have resulted in attacks on US troops. And even with temporary bad outcomes, in the long run it is always better not to occupy another country.
Biden could have done what Obama did.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I knew someone would pounce on that.
But we did go there to reform their government,
in addition to vengeance. We failed utterly.

We tried to change their government, but that wasn't the original reason for going over there. However, few people in America would have argued against eliminating the Taliban government. But we lost the battle for hearts and minds. That's what seems evident here, along with a gross inability of our own leaders to read and understand the situation they were dealing with.

What seems evident here is that our government is led by bumbling fools who don't know what they're doing and don't understand the world around them. Which brings us to this next point...

There's a flaw in your logic, ie, you miss the subtlety
of defending Putin's invasion, & excusing the war
crimes by deflection & whataboutism. There's no
other reason for changing the topic.
BTW, I didn't even get into "false equivalency".

I didn't miss any subtlety; it's precisely the point I was addressing. This isn't a courtroom, and it's hardly a forum for "defending" or "excusing" or prosecuting war crimes.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
What seems evident here is that our government is led by bumbling fools who don't know what they're doing and don't understand the world around them.
That's usually my first impulse also. "Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity." But sometimes the level of stupidity needed just isn't enough and a different agenda explains the actions so much better.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The U.S. didn't go there to fix a "****hole country";
I could'a sworn that I already answered this.
Oh, well.....
We went there for the vengeance, but stayed to
try to fix Afghanistan's government.
We shouldn't have gone there.
We shouldn't have stayed there.
We failed.
We were unlikely to ever succeed.
We finally left.
I credit Biden for ripping off the Band-Aid.
He did what Obama & Trump failed to do.

What do you think we should've done instead?
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Not odd at all, actually. Have you studied ancient history? The Byzantine court was much more elaborate (imagine standing there for an hour while mainly eunuchs sang your praises for an hour, just so that you could meet with a foreign leader).

And considering the origin of the Russian people (runs right through ancient Byzantium, in their conversion to Christianity in the 9th century), and the fantasies running through Putin's head, no, not odd or weird in any way. Quite natural. But it runs against the Western, liberal world-view so is, apparently, unrecognizable to most of public.

A matter of perspective.
The over-the-top formal opulence still looks weird to me.
And the slowly swiveling upturned heads of Putin's guards
are particularly strange.
(I never spent any time in Byzantine courts.)
 
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