How Odd Is Putin's Russia?

[TagliatelliMonster]

They should have elected some moderate wise person, not Don Quixotes like Poroshenko and Zelensky.

Who they elect is upto them.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sovereign decision, like you said. Decisions have consequences.

You didn't answer the question.

WHY does Ukraine want to join NATO?
Also note that this isn't new. Their request for joining long predates 2014.

WHY does Ukraine want to join NATO?

Answer the question.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Who else can I blame for 'provoking' Russia?

How about, you blame Russia for Russian aggression?

Do you also blame the victim when a rape takes place?
Perhaps the victim "provoked" the rapist by wearing a sexy dress or something?

Ukraine 1: We do not want Yanukowych, but here is a person, Tanukowych, who can live with you. We are not joining NATO.
Russia: That seems to be OK.
Ukraine 2: We do not want Yanukowych, we want Ranukowych. We will join NATO.
Ranukowych: Don't worry. I will take care of it. I have talked to my friend, Joe Biden. 'Army, Language, Religion' slogan attributed to Ranukowych. (Petro Poroshenko - Wikipedia)
Russia: OK, you will soon see the results.
Joe Biden: I expanded NATO. I am ruling not just USA but the whole world.

Yeah, it is disgusting how NATO used Ukraine to fight its war with Russia.

Nobody asked Ukraine to join. Nobody invited Ukraine to join. Nobody forced Ukraine to join.

Ukraine itself wanted / wants to join. And this has been the case since the 90s. Pretty much almost immediately after the collapse of the soviets.
WHY do you think this is?
WHY do you think that Ukrainians feel like they require backup / protection against Russia?

 

[Tomef]

I care about Ukraine, that is why I say that Ukraine should engage is peace-talks rather than trying to defeat Russia.

Jewish Germans attempted to engage the Nazi party in talks, pointing out for example that many German Jews fought for Germany in WWI - as many Ukrainians fought in the Red Army. They had about as much success as Ukraine has had relying on the good will of the Kremlin. The Russian govt signed two legally binding agreements - Helsinki and Budapest - pledging not only to honour but to defend Ukraine’s sovereign territory, the latter in return for Kyiv’s agreement to relinquish its nuclear arms. Those commitments were not worth the paper they were written on. As you clearly demonstrate, the Kremlin relies on ignorance and gullibility to expand its empire, and resorts to violence when these fail. The mistake NATO has made is not in supporting Ukraine’s existential fight, but in supporting it too late and with too few arms to get the job done.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I care about Ukraine, that is why I say that Ukraine should engage is peace-talks rather than trying to defeat Russia.

People tend to forget fast.

Ukraine engaged in peace talks in March 2022.
The Ukrainian delegation, along with the oligarch Abramovich who agreed on Kiev's request to be part of the negotiations, were subsequently poisoned during the "peace talks". And while the "peace talks" were ongoing, Russian tanks were lining up in an attempt to take Kiev.

Go figure.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"I want to be able to attack this sovereign nation without having to worry about others coming to its aid", then yes, I don't consider that "concern".

If you cared about Ukraine, you would also care about Ukraine's concerns, but apparently you do not.

NATO has expanded and encircled Russia. That is why Russia attacked Ukraine.
Now Ukraine is trying to push back Russia at the instigation and help from NATO.
That is a foolish enterprise. That is not going to succeed. Ukraine will suffer more losses.
NATO is sitting pretty. The war can end only through dialogue.
Zelensky should take full advantage of Modi visit to Ukraine around 8th August.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Who they elect is upto them.

They are reaping the results of wrong selections.

 

[Aupmanyav]

WHY does Ukraine want to join NATO?
Also note that this isn't new. Their request for joining long predates 2014.
WHY does Ukraine want to join NATO?

Foolishness. They would have been safe if they had not thought of joining NATO.
Why are you asking the same question twice in a post?

 

[Aupmanyav]

How about, you blame Russia for Russian aggression?
Ukraine itself wanted / wants to join. And this has been the case since the 90s. Pretty much almost immediately after the collapse of the soviets.
WHY do you think that Ukrainians feel like they require backup / protection against Russia?

I cannot blame Russia alone. The real cause of the war is NATO. Ukraine was foolish to wish joining NATO.
Has this wish protected them?

 

[Eddi]

The real cause of the war is NATO. Ukraine was foolish to wish joining NATO.

Ukraine a sovereign nation FFS

Since when does a nation's neighbour get to dictate which international organisations it choses to join????

Sounds like imperialism to me and it is, the Russian invasion is an opportunistic land grab supported by some mad cock and bull fantasy tale

 

[Aupmanyav]

Jewish Germans attempted to engage the Nazi party in talks, pointing out for example that many German Jews fought for Germany in WWI - as many Ukrainians fought in the Red Army.

That is a different topic. At this moment, I would not comment on that. One needs preparation to discuss a subject.
Hitler and Putin are from different eras and with different problems.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ukraine engaged in peace talks in March 2022.
The Ukrainian delegation, along with the oligarch Abramovich who agreed on Kiev's request to be part of the negotiations, were subsequently poisoned during the "peace talks". And while the "peace talks" were ongoing, Russian tanks were lining up in an attempt to take Kiev.

That was too late. They should have talked to Russia before electing a fool like Poroshenko and should have known their limits.

 

[Glaurung]

How is a self-defensive measure "provocation"? Do women "provoke" rapists by carrying mace?

Russia and its apologists believe that Russia as a great power is entitled to hegemonic control over eastern Europe. Under this view, any assertion of Ukrainian independence is a provocation because Ukraine is a non-negotiable part of the Russian sphere of influence. For Russia and its apologists, Ukraine joining NATO is a provocation because Ukraine is not entitled to independent decisions. It is a province of an empire Russia feels it has a historical right to.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ukraine a sovereign nation FFS.

Even sovereign nations do not act foolishly.
Why are US, India and many other countries are not recognizing Taiwan as an independent nation?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Russia and its apologists believe that Russia as a great power is entitled to hegemonic control over eastern Europe.

If you encircle a lion or tiger, then it is going to attack someone. NATO wanted that and Ukraine proved to be the sheep.

 

[Glaurung]

If you encircle a lion or tiger, then it is going to attack someone. NATO wanted that and Ukraine proved to be the sheep.

Putin is mad because NATO guarantees countries he sees as Russian vassals, not because he fears a NATO offensive.

Peace with Russia on Russia's ideal terms would be for the west to hand it political control over everything east of Germany. Which is delusional. Russia's empire is gone. Russia and its apologists need to get over it.

 

[Tomef]

That is a different topic. At this moment, I would not comment on that. One needs preparation to discuss a subject.
Hitler and Putin are from different eras and with different problems.

Pretty similar scenarios. Both are trying to empire build by invading other countries.

Preparation is right, however it seems you know little about the situation in Ukraine, perhaps you should prepare for that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Peace with Russia on Russia's ideal terms would be for the west to hand it political control over everything east of Germany. Which is delusional. Russia's empire is gone. Russia and its apologists need to get over it.

I am neither a Putin apologist nor a NATO apologist. I think independently and these are my views.
There cannot be peace without addressing Putin's concerns.
NATO can continue the fight at the expense of Ukraine. NATO soldiers are not fighting this war.

 

[Tomef]

If you encircle a lion or tiger, then it is going to attack someone. NATO wanted that and Ukraine proved to be the sheep.

NATO wanted that? Have you bothered to look into the history of Ukraine’s requests to be considered for admission to NATO, the response to that, and the non-existence of any requests made to any Ukrainian govt to join?

The baltic states were also under threat of land grabs by Putin - they weren’t invaded because they joined NATO, not because they didn’t. When has Russia invaded a country it didn’t believe it could easily defeat?

Check a map. Check the meaning of the word ‘encircle’. Look at Russia’s border. Getting the idea?

What is most astonishing about this kind of guff is the assumption that Ukrainian people, who have been fighting to keep their independence for decades, somehow don’t know why they are doing it. How can you think that a whole nation of people simply have no idea what they are doing and why? This is dumbness at an epic level.

 

[Stevicus]

I am neither a Putin apologist nor a NATO apologist. I think independently and these are my views.
There cannot be peace without addressing Putin's concerns.
NATO can continue the fight at the expense of Ukraine. NATO soldiers are not fighting this war.

That's the key thing that I've noticed. The end result is a weakened and depleted Russia, along with a severely devastated Ukraine. Russia will end up having to turn to China, while Ukraine will become dependent upon the West. Neither Ukraine nor Russia are benefiting from them killing each other like this.