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How old is man?

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Boy, many of you are way, way, way old. The evidence we are still relatively young is through radiocarbon dating. You're using the wrong dating method of radiometric dating. The methodology isn't wrong, but your assumptions are.

The universe is not only full of clocks but is a clock itself.
Anything from the sun moving across the sky to the seasons
to silting lakes to shifting magnetic fields to decaying atoms.

The issue with carbon dating was its accuracy with age, but
new technologies have largely solved this - and the dates
in question are actually OLDER than earlier thought.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
The universe is not only full of clocks but is a clock itself.
Anything from the sun moving across the sky to the seasons
to silting lakes to shifting magnetic fields to decaying atoms.

The issue with carbon dating was its accuracy with age, but
new technologies have largely solved this - and the dates
in question are actually OLDER than earlier thought.

No one is questioning the methodology of radiometric dating. C14 dating is radiometric dating. If you look at the radioisotope dating, we find it's not the methodolgy that is wrong, but the assumptions. If you get variety of dates for a sample using radioisotope dating, then toss the entire sample out. Instead, they take only that which fits their preconceived notions of evolutionary time chronology. Basically, atheist scientists use of it is circular reasoning. I think all of the carbon and diamond samples thought to be millions of years old still had carbon left and was able to be C14 dated. This includes the dinosaur fossils.

ETA: My bad. This is Religions Q&A. The Bible states we have a young Earth if we use it for calculations. They are explained here -- The Bible Says the Earth is Young.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
No one is questioning the methodology of radiometric dating. C14 dating is radiometric dating. If you look at the radioisotope dating, we find it's not the methodolgy that is wrong, but the assumptions. If you get variety of dates for a sample using radioisotope dating, then toss the entire sample out. Instead, they take only that which fits their preconceived notions of evolutionary time chronology. Basically, atheist scientists use of it is circular reasoning. I think all of the carbon and diamond samples thought to be millions of years old still had carbon left and was able to be C14 dated. This includes the dinosaur fossils.

ETA: My bad. This is Religions Q&A. The Bible states we have a young Earth if we use it for calculations. They are explained here -- The Bible Says the Earth is Young.
This is why I told you it was rubbish. Nobody uses C14 for dinosaurs because there isn't any left in fossils that old: How To Date A Dinosaur Fossil | TSC

In the case of diamond, formed deep in the Earth's interior, any C14 present comes from radioactive decay of heavy element impurities, i.e. a totally different mechanism, from which no conclusion about age can be drawn.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
No one is questioning the methodology of radiometric dating. C14 dating is radiometric dating. If you look at the radioisotope dating, we find it's not the methodolgy that is wrong, but the assumptions. If you get variety of dates for a sample using radioisotope dating, then toss the entire sample out. Instead, they take only that which fits their preconceived notions of evolutionary time chronology. Basically, atheist scientists use of it is circular reasoning. I think all of the carbon and diamond samples thought to be millions of years old still had carbon left and was able to be C14 dated. This includes the dinosaur fossils.

ETA: My bad. This is Religions Q&A. The Bible states we have a young Earth if we use it for calculations. They are explained here -- The Bible Says the Earth is Young.

The commandment against bearing false
witness does not apply to you?

(btw, saying diamonds have carbon left is
at least vaguely humorous, in that diamonds
are composed of carbon)
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
According to "science" man is over 190,000 years old, but according to the Bible man is only about 6,000 years old. Now who is right? If science is right, why does the Bible only tell a story about 6,000 years old? What happened in the other 184,000 years? Were Adam and Eve really the first humans?
If the Bible is right; then why does the "science" lie?

Who do you believe, the "science" or the Bible?

I believe both. I believe some uniformitarian assumptions and assumptions about genetics cause an older "mitochondrial Adam and Eve". After all, think about the paucity of historical documents, even stele, before 6,000 years in the past...!
 

Audie

Veteran Member
This is why I told you it was rubbish. Nobody uses C14 for dinosaurs because there isn't any left in fossils that old: How To Date A Dinosaur Fossil | TSC

In the case of diamond, formed deep in the Earth's interior, any C14 present comes from radioactive decay of heavy element impurities, i.e. a totally different mechanism, from which no conclusion about age can be drawn.

Is that it, or something about the ability
of the equipment to distinguish between
zero and some vanishingly small amount?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Is that it, or something about the ability
of the equipment to distinguish between
zero and some vanishingly small amount?
I gather you can sometimes get some C14 in diamond as a byproduct of the radioactive decay of inclusions of uranium and thorium, both of which have some long-lived radioisotopes.

This is quite different from the source of C14 in organic material, where the logic is that it comes from the CO2 in the air breathed by the organism, up to the point it dies, whereupon the decay clock starts to tick.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I gather you can sometimes get some C14 in diamond as a byproduct of the radioactive decay of inclusions of uranium and thorium, both of which have some long-lived radioisotopes.

This is quite different from the source of C14 in organic material, where the logic is that it comes from the CO2 in the air breathed by the organism, up to the point it dies, whereupon the decay clock starts to tick.

I was though asking about the detection ability of the
equipment. Could, say, a bit of C14 be mistakenly
be detected in sulfur?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I was though asking about the detection ability of the
equipment. Could, say, a bit of C14 be mistakenly
be detected in sulfur?
Not if it is done by mass spectrometry. Mass spec analyses by atomic mass. The atomic mass of S isotopes in is the range between 32 and 36 i.e. a lot heavier.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
According to "science" man is over 190,000 years old, but according to the Bible man is only about 6,000 years old. Now who is right? If science is right, why does the Bible only tell a story about 6,000 years old? What happened in the other 184,000 years? Were Adam and Eve really the first humans?
If the Bible is right; then why does the "science" lie?

Who do you believe, the "science" or the Bible?

Both can be right at the same time. Science talks about DNA, while the bible talks about modern human temperament. As an example of this logic, dogs were domesticated about 18,000-30,000 years ago. Before then, dogs, such as wolves, were still dogs according to their DNA. However, they were wilder and more natural in terms of temperament. Domestication caused dogs to loose some of their natural instinct, in favor of a relationship with humans, where the humans start to think for them.

In term of humans, science can show that the invention of written language appears about 6000 years ago. This is not coincidence. In the beginning, was the word and word was God. The 6000 years ago is when the human mind becomes domesticated, because of written texts; the invention of writing. Both the Pre-humans humans from 200,000 years ago, and the humans of 6000 years ago had the same DNA. However, the 6000 human had a new domesticated temperament, that started to lose natural instinct.

Picture having to go to school and having to learn all your courses at a time when there is no written materials and no ability to write. You and the teacher would have to depend entirely on memory, without materials to review. The human would selectively remember, forget, embellish and exaggerate, and then, over time, return to natural inertia. Once writing was invented, the teacher and student could reinforce memory and overcome the data loss of natural inertia. This was the domestication of the pre-humans into the first humans that the bible discusses.

Science has shown that civilization had many start ups, for several thousand years, before it finally took root in Mesopotamia. The reason was, even if the elders generated all the inventions needed for civilization, word of mouth alone was not sufficient to transfer at this data forward over time though many generations. Word of mouth tends to selectively remember, exaggerate, embellish and forget. Later generations would mess things up and not be able to keep it going. Writing changed the equation; solid unchanging foundation that is unnatural, and pre-man becomes domesticated by the word. Adam is one of the first humans in the modern sense. Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil was a book that dammed up natural man.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Both can be right at the same time. Science talks about DNA, while the bible talks about modern human temperament. As an example of this logic, dogs were domesticated about 18,000-30,000 years ago. Before then, dogs, such as wolves, were still dogs according to their DNA. However, they were wilder and more natural in terms of temperament. Domestication caused dogs to loose some of their natural instinct, in favor of a relationship with humans, where the humans start to think for them.

In term of humans, science can show that the invention of written language appears about 6000 years ago. This is not coincidence. In the beginning, was the word and word was God. The 6000 years ago is when the human mind becomes domesticated, because of written texts; the invention of writing. Both the Pre-humans humans from 200,000 years ago, and the humans of 6000 years ago had the same DNA. However, the 6000 human had a new domesticated temperament, that started to lose natural instinct.

Picture having to go to school and having to learn all your courses at a time when there is no written materials and no ability to write. You and the teacher would have to depend entirely on memory, without materials to review. The human would selectively remember, forget, embellish and exaggerate, and then, over time, return to natural inertia. Once writing was invented, the teacher and student could reinforce memory and overcome the data loss of natural inertia. This was the domestication of the pre-humans into the first humans that the bible discusses.

Science has shown that civilization had many start ups, for several thousand years, before it finally took root in Mesopotamia. The reason was, even if the elders generated all the inventions needed for civilization, word of mouth alone was not sufficient to transfer at this data forward over time though many generations. Word of mouth tends to selectively remember, exaggerate, embellish and forget. Later generations would mess things up and not be able to keep it going. Writing changed the equation; solid unchanging foundation that is unnatural, and pre-man becomes domesticated by the word. Adam is one of the first humans in the modern sense. Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil was a book that dammed up natural man.

However, the 6000 human had a new domesticated temperament, that started to lose natural instinct.

Seriously? There are people today who were born in the stone
age.
Their kids could be taken and educated as anything anyone
anywhere else in the world can be.

FTM, the acquired skills and body of knowledge it takes
to live in a tropical rain forest would tax the intellect of
anyone anywhere to learn.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
No, I am sorry Genesis 1 has repeated several things. There shouldn't be
an argument about it. Nor should there be an argument that it's written in
theological language. But you can discern the underlying intent of the text.
The basic statements are factual - in as much as they agree with science.
And I think I worked it out here once that the probability of getting each of
the sequences correct and in order was one in several thousand?

You are just trying to squint and hem and haw and find some way to get
out of admitting the similarities are so significant.
Not in the least. I would be impressed if it made scientific sense but it does not. And then Genesis 2 says something that contradicts it - which is even more scientifically wrong.

But this was obvious to scholars from the very start. Origen thought it ridiculous to take literally back in 200AD. We did not have to wait for science to come along after the Reformation to reach the conclusion that these are allegorical stories.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Who do you believe, the "science" or the Bible?

Which one has yielded useful information? I can't use anything from the Bible, but we're all using science right now. That's the evidence that allows us to decide which to rely on - which one generates knowledge that can be used to make life longer, healthier, safer, more functional, less laborious, etc..

the days of creation were exactly 24 hours. Because if you look more closely, you will see that it is written at the end of each day of creation: "And it was evening and it was morning; the ? day". The logical conclusion of this is that the days of creation were indeed 24 hours each. But there is a reason for all this, because of course God, if he wanted to, could have created the world in less than 1 second. But he had it done that way, as a sign of time and especially as a sign of the Sabbath.

I agree that the six days of creation and the one day of rest were intended to mean 24 hour period, and I have what I think is an interesting hypothesis to account for the odd appearance of a story about an omnipotent god needing six days to work, and then a day of rest.

Once, before the advent of organized, centralized religion, I presume that it was considered sinful for any able-bodied person capable of working to not work simply because he wanted a day off. The flocks needed attention every day. If it was planting or harvesting season, there were no days when planting or harvesting didn't occur until the job was done.

Fast forward to the advent of organized religion with a priesthood and centralized gathering places for religious purposes. The priesthood needs the people to come to it and the temple, which requires that people put down their plowshares, travel to the synagogue for services, and to bring tithes to support the priests.

This round trip and meeting would likely take most of a day for many of the people served by any given synagogue, and require that the farmer, smith, or shepherd take a day off work to travel to the priests - once considered sinful sloth. A new ethic was born. You will take one day away from your labors each week In fact, it was commanded under penalty of stoning, which commandment made the top ten list. The sin then became working on this day. And God's day of rest serves as the role model, and why it is sinful to not also take a day off each week.

Notice also the choice of the week, an artificial construct with no astronomical correlate like the day, month, or year, which are inspired by celestial motions and cycles. How often shall these people be instructed to take a day off and bring tithes to the priests? A month was too long, and a day too short, so, the week was invented - the work week to be precise.

Now the story make sense. Now we have a plausible reason for there being six days of labor for this god followed by one of rest.

I've found it helpful over the years to ask why these stories have such strange elements in them, such as why a god needed a day of rest. Askyourself why the flood story appears in the Bible. Here we have a story of a morally and intellectually incompetent god depicted as fallible, capricious, cruel, unfair, and not too smart creator for using the same breeding stock to repair its engineering mistake with humanity?. Why would such a story be preserved? What purpose does it fulfill?

I think it begins with finding sea shells and marine fossils on mountaintops. Explain that if you're an ancient.

Today, we understand that these mountain tops were former sea floors uplifted by plate tectonics to form mountains. But in ancient times, that was unthinkable. To them, the seas rose to cover all the land.

For whatever his reason, God must have drowned the earth. Being a good god, it must have been deserved. These must have been wicked people indeed. And there's your flood story, and why this flood is global when all other floods witnessed by man were local and didn't cover the highest peaks.

Again, now the inclusion of such a story makes sense.

In the religion I follow, Swedenborgianism, Genesis is intended to be mythological rather than a literal account of actual historical events.

I think that the stories were once understood to be history, but being guesses, were later shown to be wrong. Somebody originally knew that they were just making up stories, but after they had been told and retold generation after generation around the fire, they were not told or understood as myths, but as history.

It's only now that we know that these stories are wrong, but still beloved by many, that they are charitably presented as if they were always intended to be metaphors or allegories rather than just wrong.

Likewise with every other culture with a creation story. There is no reason to think, for example, that the Vikings didn't literally believe that, "Odin, Vili, and Ve killed the giant Ymir. The sons of Bor then ... made the world from him. From his blood they made the sea and the lakes; from his flesh the earth; from his hair the trees; and from his bones the mountains. They made rocks and pebbles from his teeth and jaws and those bones that were broken." They didn't tell these stories and end them with, "This never really happened. It's just a myth. We don't know what happened, so let's tell these stories until we do."
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Boy, many of you are way, way, way old. The evidence we are still relatively young is through radiocarbon dating. You're using the wrong dating method of radiometric dating. The methodology isn't wrong, but your assumptions are.
What are our erroneous assumptions?

Of course radiocarbon dating's going to reveal a fairly young world. Fifty thousand years is about the limit of its application. No-one would use it on really old samples.
Other radiometric methods reveal an age of billions of years.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, I am sorry Genesis 1 has repeated several things. There shouldn't be
an argument about it. Nor should there be an argument that it's written in
theological language. But you can discern the underlying intent of the text.
The basic statements are factual - in as much as they agree with science.
And I think I worked it out here once that the probability of getting each of
the sequences correct and in order was one in several thousand?

You are just trying to squint and hem and haw and find some way to get
out of admitting the similarities are so significant.
Sorry, but why do we keep harking back to this particular religious work? What does the bible have to do with objective facts of Physical Anthropology or Geology?

For that matter, why is only the Bible being cited? Why has no-one brought up any other religious scriptures?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No one is questioning the methodology of radiometric dating. C14 dating is radiometric dating. If you look at the radioisotope dating, we find it's not the methodolgy that is wrong, but the assumptions. If you get variety of dates for a sample using radioisotope dating, then toss the entire sample out. Instead, they take only that which fits their preconceived notions of evolutionary time chronology. Basically, atheist scientists use of it is circular reasoning. I think all of the carbon and diamond samples thought to be millions of years old still had carbon left and was able to be C14 dated. This includes the dinosaur fossils.
C14 dating has been corroborated by other, consilient dating techniques confirming carbon dates on particular samples. It's limits are well known, and unexpected findings are usually discovered to be sampling or methodological errors.
If an unexpected result were found; no methodological errors could be discovered, and repeated testing continued to yield the same result, the result would usually be accepted as provisionally true.
There's no scientific agenda to push any particular doctrine. In fact, if you want to make a name for yourself in science, the way to do it is to upend current thinking.

ETA: My bad. This is Religions Q&A. The Bible states we have a young Earth if we use it for calculations. They are explained here -- The Bible Says the Earth is Young.[/QUOTE]Fine -- but it's objectively wrong, isn't it?
I believe both. I believe some uniformitarian assumptions and assumptions about genetics cause an older "mitochondrial Adam and Eve". After all, think about the paucity of historical documents, even stele, before 6,000 years in the past...!

10,000+ year old stele:
iu
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
This is why I told you it was rubbish. Nobody uses C14 for dinosaurs because there isn't any left in fossils that old: How To Date A Dinosaur Fossil | TSC

In the case of diamond, formed deep in the Earth's interior, any C14 present comes from radioactive decay of heavy element impurities, i.e. a totally different mechanism, from which no conclusion about age can be drawn.

That's not what the RATE group found -- Radiocarbon in Diamonds Confirmed.

#7 Carbon-14 in Fossils, Coal, and Diamonds

Dinosaur fossils were radiocarbon dated to 40 K years. Now, that isn't 6,000 years, but it is much closer to 6,000 than 200 million. Moreover, the radiometric dating isn't going to give us precise dating. That's just the nature of radiometric dating. It really is about old Earth vs young Earth.
 
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