How on earth can the Qur'an be considered the perfect book?

[muhammad_isa]

..Defying logic its chapters are organized by order of size rather than by when the 'revelations' actually occurred.

Yes, that's right .. the fact that you know that means that we have more information about the composition of the Qur'an than the Bible!

 

[MARCELLO]

Yes, that's right .. the fact that you know that means that we have more information about the composition of the Qur'an than the Bible!

Come on,it is not. Your devoted belief in a religion may not mean it is the best one. Believing Koran is the best does not make you perfect,on the other hand,believing Koran is not the best does not make me perfect either. Beliefs are actually cultural things. Unless we do not abuse them,there is no problem.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Beliefs are actually cultural things..

They can be .. but they all have a beginning, and they didn't necessarily start off in the nations we find them today!

Some of us, such as myself, have always believed in Almighty God, but changed their denomination ..

[ it's all in the detail ]

 

[MARCELLO]

They can be .. but they all have a beginning, and they didn't necessarily start off in the nations we find them today!

Some of us, such as myself, have always believed in Almighty God, but changed their denomination ..

[ it's all in the detail ]

Changing denomination? Really needed? If so why? If so when? If so how?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Changing denomination? Really needed? If so why? If so when? If so how?

Almighty God has given us intelligence. If we are sincere about 'finding the truth', perhaps being triggered by some event(s) in our lives, we should make theological decisions for ourselves, and not depend on a pope' or an imam or rabbi etc.

That deosn't mean that we shouldn't listen to others, but we shouldn't follow one person exclusively, imo

 

[Augustus]

Yes, that's right .. the fact that you know that means that we have more information about the composition of the Qur'an than the Bible!

That's certainly debatable. It relies heavily on Islamic theology rather than academic history.

The composition of the NT is fairly well understood, the Quran less so unless you trust the theological narrative which is certainly questionable from a historical perspective.

I understand that Muslims accept the theology as accurate, although it is treated in the same way as 'normal' history then things are a lot more open to debate with a wide range of explanations being made by various scholars.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That's certainly debatable. It relies heavily on Islamic theology rather than academic history.

How's that? The chronogical order of verses was being discussed .. are you saing that we really don't know which order the verses were revealed?

The composition of the NT is fairly well understood

Yes .. but it's difficult to establish who were the authors, and why it contains four gospels, for example..

I understand that Muslims accept the theology as accurate, although it is treated in the same way as 'normal' history then things are a lot more open to debate with a wide range of explanations being made by various scholars.

I treat everything as 'normal history' .. the main problem , it seems to me, is the mistrust between believers and disbelievers. It's very difficult to eradicate that, and I for one, have no allegiance to any particular 'group' when examining the evidence.

 

[Augustus]

How's that? The chronogical order of verses was being discussed .. are you saing that we really don't know which order the verses were revealed?

It is debated.

Some scholars agree with the traditional datings, others don't.

Yes .. but it's difficult to establish who were the authors, and why it contains four gospels, for example..

Applying the same critical methods to Islamic history also bring up many questions though.

I treat everything as 'normal history' .. the main problem , it seems to me, is the mistrust between believers and disbelievers. It's very difficult to eradicate that, and I for one, have no allegiance to any particular 'group' when examining the evidence.

The problem is there is a lack of definitive evidence. Aspect of the broader tradition also don't appear probable given the scholarship that has developed over the past 30 years.

I also don't think mistrust is necessarily the problem as regards scholarship rather than media driven discourse. It is fair to say that much evidence is ambiguous, and a believer and a non-believer are likely to place different weighting on different kinds of evidence.

How would you try to persuade someone that the order of revelation as attested to by the tradition is accurate?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..How would you try to persuade someone that the order of revelation as attested to by the tradition is accurate?

Well, firstly, does it make sense? Is the content applicable to the various stages?
The verses/surahs are basically split into two .. maccan and madinan.

The fact that the surahs are roughly sorted from larger to smaller is very helpful when it comes to study and recitation in prayer. Naturally, on most occasions, most people will wish to recite (from memory) shorter surahs as they are busy with their jobs/families etc.

 

[Augustus]

Well, firstly, does it make sense? Is the content applicable to the various stages?
The verses/surahs are basically split into two .. maccan and madinan.

This relies on the accuracy of the Sirah and exegesis though. You end up with this circular reasoning where it must be correct because it matches the tradition. While the tradition is historical evidence, it is also theology. It all comes down to how much you trust the chain of transmission and the scholarship to verify its accuracy.

This is what I meant by saying believers and non-believers put different weight on evidence. For me, there are some clear historical inaccuracies in the exegesis and Sirah, which means I find it hard to trust them as accurate overall. Muslims tend to trust that the piety of the believers made sure that they were accurate in what they recorded and transmitted.

The are 2 different hermeneutical frameworks in operation, and given that neither side's view can be 'proved' it comes down to interpretation of evidence.

Something like Abraha's attack on the ka'baa in the year of the Elephant seems to be based on an event that happened 15 years before Muhammed was born (and likely didn't involve Mecca) in which Abraha was successful as there is a commemorative inscription.

But seeing as Abraha disappears from the record after that, it can't be 'proven' that something didn't happen later than that to match the Muslim tradition.

The non-Muslim can say that it seems probable that the tradition is wrong, but the Muslim can say that there is no evidence to prove that the Muslim tradition is wrong. It comes down to what weight you give to what evidence.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Almighty God has given us intelligence. If we are sincere about 'finding the truth', perhaps being triggered by some event(s) in our lives, we should make theological decisions for ourselves, and not depend on a pope' or an imam or rabbi etc.

That deosn't mean that we shouldn't listen to others, but we shouldn't follow one person exclusively, imo

Yes we have to know the truth through our minds
Read the teachings of the Koran
And compare it with the teachings of other religions
After this we know the truth

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

That's certainly debatable. It relies heavily on Islamic theology rather than academic history.

The composition of the NT is fairly well understood, the Quran less so unless you trust the theological narrative which is certainly questionable from a historical perspective.

I understand that Muslims accept the theology as accurate, although it is treated in the same way as 'normal' history then things are a lot more open to debate with a wide range of explanations being made by various scholars.

Islam rejects this logic
You can not dialogue with the Muslim, because you would run into the wall of the Word of God
A firewall You can not overcome
But we're in this forum speak freely
But I can not speak with the Muslim these subjects on the ground

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

How's that? The chronogical order of verses was being discussed .. are you saing that we really don't know which order the verses were revealed?

The order of verses in the Koran does not depend on the subject also does not support chronological order
But it depends on the length Sura
This is the order of the Koran and according to the length and the short sura
Short first and so on down to the long Sura

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Well, firstly, does it make sense? Is the content applicable to the various stages?
The verses/surahs are basically split into two .. maccan and madinan.

The fact that the surahs are roughly sorted from larger to smaller is very helpful when it comes to study and recitation in prayer. Naturally, on most occasions, most people will wish to recite (from memory) shorter surahs as they are busy with their jobs/families etc.

Does God does not know the order of events, but in that way ???
Do you know the difference between the Meccan verses and the Federated States of Medina ??
That style?
Muhammad was in Mecca convey the teachings of the Hebrew Bible from Pastor son Nawfal
It is the monk Bahira
But in Medina Mohammed canceled all states of Mecca and moved to the stage of the war and the fighting to spread what he writes
In Mecca, Muhammad Bashir and Nazir
But in Medina became the apostle

 

[paarsurrey]

How on earth can the Qur'an be considered the perfect book?

Quran claims to be a perfect Recitation in ethical, moral and spiritual domains of human life and gives the wisdom of this claim. No other book claims that and gives reasons even.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

How on earth can the Qur'an be considered the perfect book?
Quran claims to be a perfect Recitation in ethical, moral and spiritual domains of human life and gives the wisdom of this claim. No other book claims that and gives reasons even.
Regards

There is nothing lacking in Quran Recitation for guidance in ethical, moral and spiritual realms of human life, in this sense it must be considered the perfect book.
Regards

 

[gnostic]

There is nothing lacking in Quran Recitation for guidance in ethical, moral and spiritual realms of human life, in this sense it must be considered the perfect book.
Regards

It is hardly ethical when the Qur'an sanctioned domestic violence upon "disobedient" wife or treat women as properties.

It is not moral or fair for a man to have more than one wife, when a woman cannot have more than one husband.

It is hardly ethical that a scripture would sanction slave trade.

And it is definitely not ethical for the Qur'an to sanction "stealing".

The Qur'an is hardly perfect even when dealing with ethics, morals or equality.

 

[gnostic]

How on earth can the Qur'an be considered the perfect book?

Quran claims to be a perfect Recitation in ethical, moral and spiritual domains of human life and gives the wisdom of this claim. No other book claims that and gives reasons even.
Regards

The Qur'an is not a perfect book when it spins myths and fables, like creating Adam from clay, Jinns being creatures of fire, or Solomon being able to control winds or communicate with ants.

That's hardly a book of wisdom.

 

[LuisDantas]

How on earth can the Qur'an be considered the perfect book?

Quran claims to be a perfect Recitation in ethical, moral and spiritual domains of human life and gives the wisdom of this claim. No other book claims that and gives reasons even.
Regards

Still, there is a world of difference between making a claim and being up to it.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
How on earth can the Qur'an be considered the perfect book?

Quran claims to be a perfect Recitation in ethical, moral and spiritual domains of human life and gives the wisdom of this claim. No other book claims that and gives reasons even.
Regards

Still, there is a world of difference between making a claim and being up to it.

What is lacking in Quran in guidance "in ethical, moral and spiritual domains of human life"? Please
Regards