How Russian news sells the war

[Revoltingest]

When exactly did Putin ask to join NATO, and what were the circumstances?

Ex-Nato head says Putin wanted to join alliance early on in his rule

 

[Martin]

Ex-Nato head says Putin wanted to join alliance early on in his rule

Sounds like it would have had to be on Putin's terms, and his attitude to NATO has obviously hardened over the last 20 years. And of course Putin plays games for political advantage, he is quite prepared to lie.
Anyway, that was then, this is now. Cold War, part 2.

 

[Estro Felino]

Sounds like it would have had to be on Putin's terms, and his attitude to NATO has obviously hardened over the last 20 years. And of course Putin plays games for political advantage, he is quite prepared to lie.
Anyway, that was then, this is now. Cold War, part 2.

So you admit the NATO is an American organization...and other members are vassals?
Russia just asked for equal partnership.

 

[Martin]

So you admit the NATO is an American organization...and other members are just inferior members...that is vassals?
Russia just asked for equal partnership.

It sounds like Putin wanted special status in NATO, which wouldn't have been possible. I suspect he was playing games though, trying to fabricate excuses for future aggression.

Anyway, this is ancient history.
Now Putin is an aggressive bully, his troops are slaughtering civilians in Ukraine, and he has threatened NATO with nuclear weapons. So what to do?

 

[Estro Felino]

It sounds like Putin wanted special status in NATO, which wouldn't have been possible. I suspect he was playing games though, trying to fabricate excuses for future aggression.

Anyway, this is ancient history.
Now Putin is an aggressive bully, his troops are slaughtering civilians in Ukraine, and he has threatened NATO with nuclear weapons. So what to do?

I asked you a question.
Putin wanted equal status to the US.
Was that asking for too much?

 

[Martin]

I asked you a question.
Putin wanted equal status to the US.
Was that asking for too much?

It sounds like he wanted superior status to non-US members, and didn't want to go through the normal application process. Both of which would have been contrary to NATO articles, and not a realistic option.

But as I said, this is all in the past, and obviously there is no way that Putin would join NATO now.
So what to do now ? How to stop Putin from slaughtering civilians in Ukraine? How to counter his threats of using nuclear weapons? How to counter his ambition to reestablish the Soviet Empire, and bring back down the Iron Curtain over Eastern Europe?
What's your answer to the situation now ?

 

[Estro Felino]

It sounds like he wanted superior status to non-US members, and didn't want to go through the normal application process. Both of which would have been contrary to NATO articles, and not a realistic option.

But as I said, this is all in the past, and obviously there is no way that Putin would join NATO now.
So what to do now ? How to stop Putin from slaughtering civilians in Ukraine? How to counter his threats of using nuclear weapons? How to counter his ambition to reestablish the Soviet Empire, and bring back down the Iron Curtain over Eastern Europe?
What's your answer to the situation now ?

With all due respect...you did not answer my question:
Is the NATO a US-led organization, then?
It is a simple question.

And I will answer your question, then

 

[Martin]

With all due respect...you did not answer my question:
Is the NATO a US-led organization, then?
It is a simple question.

And I will answer your question, then

I wouldn't say NATO is "US-led", but they are obviously an important member.

 

[Stevicus]

It appears that he's willing to engage in one.
That is what we should discourage.

I'm not so sure of that, although who can read the mind of Putin?

If we're trying to imagine ourselves inside the mind of Vladimir Putin, then he might see the invasion of Ukraine in much the same way Lincoln would have viewed the invasion of the Confederate States of America. In other words, he likely sees it as an internal matter and that other nations should not interfere or comment. If so, that would reduce the likelihood of any desire to attack any countries he would see as non-Russian.

As long as it doesn't prevent free travel to Russia,
Turkey seems likely safe, having not been a USSR
satellite.

The Russians have wanted to retake Constantinople for Orthodoxy since 1453. If Putin is thinking along the same lines as ancient Russian monarchs, then that may be the direction he might go. That they weren't a USSR satellite in the past is immaterial.

 

[Estro Felino]

I wouldn't say NATO is "US-led", but they are obviously an important member.

And that is what Russia demanded. To matter in the decisions.

 

[Martin]

And that is what Russia demanded. To matter in the decisions.

I don't know exactly what Putin demanded, or whether it was practical. I doubt you do either.

Anyway, what's your answer to my question? What do we do now about the horrendous situation Putin has created? ?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Since Turkey has been mentioned in the thread, this might be relevant - not from a reliable source though - as to something that could bring NATO into the conflict - depending upon what Turkey and Russia do here.

Turkey: Erdogan power play over Putin as missile-laden warships descend on Bosphorus

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't know exactly what Putin demanded, or whether it was practical. I doubt you do either.

Anyway, what's your answer to my question? What do we do now about the horrendous situation Putin has created? ?

I know for certain that Putin just wants Ukraine to return to the pre-2014 situation. And he will make peace, leaving the country.
So...Sorosian people, Sorosian NGOs, and other unchristian, sinister presences...out of the country. New elections.

Is he asking for too much?

 

[ChristineM]

I know for certain that Putin just wants Ukraine to return to the pre-2014 situation. And he will make peace, leaving the country.
So...Sorosian people, Sorosian NGOs, and other unchristian, sinister presences...out of the country. New elections.

Is he asking for too much?

The countries political and religious stance is **** all to do with putin. So he is forcing his will by war on a country that doesn't want it. Nice guy eh?

 

[Stevicus]

Since Turkey has been mentioned in the thread, this might be relevant - not from a reliable source though - as to something that could bring NATO into the conflict - depending upon what Turkey and Russia do here.

Turkey: Erdogan power play over Putin as missile-laden warships descend on Bosphorus

This could be a trouble spot. Erdogan is trying to play both sides of the fence, as he's in a pretty tight spot himself with the Syrian civil war right on his doorstep, along with various domestic troubles he's been having, criticisms over human rights abuses, etc. The other NATO powers have not been too happy with Turkey as of late.

However, it appears Turkey is refusing access for Russian warships to cross through the Bosporus. If Russia attempts it and Turkey tries to stop them, Russia could conceivably use force - whatever force might be necessary to allow safe passage of their warships. This could be interpreted as an attack on a NATO country and be considered a valid casus belli for NATO to declare war on Russia.

On the other hand, if Turkey decides to allow Russian warships to pass through, then NATO could see that as a betrayal and decide to punish Turkey for not being fully on side. But NATO might want to measure their response to something like this (if it comes to that), lest they push Erdogan even further into Putin's arms.

Another part of the article you linked here mentioned Kazakhstan's refusal to send troops or recognize Luhansk and Donetsk as independent states. They also sent a plane with humanitarian aid to Ukraine. So even they're not fully on board with this thing Putin is doing.

 

[Mock Turtle]

This could be a trouble spot. Erdogan is trying to play both sides of the fence, as he's in a pretty tight spot himself with the Syrian civil war right on his doorstep, along with various domestic troubles he's been having, criticisms over human rights abuses, etc. The other NATO powers have not been too happy with Turkey as of late.

However, it appears Turkey is refusing access for Russian warships to cross through the Bosporus. If Russia attempts it and Turkey tries to stop them, Russia could conceivably use force - whatever force might be necessary to allow safe passage of their warships. This could be interpreted as an attack on a NATO country and be considered a valid casus belli for NATO to declare war on Russia.

On the other hand, if Turkey decides to allow Russian warships to pass through, then NATO could see that as a betrayal and decide to punish Turkey for not being fully on side. But NATO might want to measure their response to something like this (if it comes to that), lest they push Erdogan even further into Putin's arms.

Another part of the article you linked here mentioned Kazakhstan's refusal to send troops or recognize Luhansk and Donetsk as independent states. They also sent a plane with humanitarian aid to Ukraine. So even they're not fully on board with this thing Putin is doing.

Tricky situation. And you have to admire Kazakhstan.

 

[Estro Felino]

The countries political and religious stance is **** all to do with putin. So he is forcing his will by war on a country that doesn't want it. Nice guy eh?

But only new elections can state what the Ukrainian people really want.

 

[ChristineM]

But only new elections can state what the Ukrainian people really want.

They certainly don't want Putin bombing them, that is pretty obvious.

I wonder how many countries hold new elections when some super power is stomping on them to see if they want said super power stomping on them?

Perhaps you could enlighten me...

 

[Revoltingest]

Sounds like it would have had to be on Putin's terms, and his attitude to NATO has obviously hardened over the last 20 years. And of course Putin plays games for political advantage, he is quite prepared to lie.
Anyway, that was then, this is now. Cold War, part 2.

I think the claim that allowing Russia to join NATO would've
prevented the invasion of Ukraine is wrong. Putin views
Ukraine as part of Russia, & very strongly wanted to
re-incorporate it. So if the driving issue were really fear
of having NATO countries bordering Russia, then problems
would remain....
- Estonia, Lithuania, Turkey, Norway, & Latvia still border Russia.
- Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, & Romania would border Russia
after it re-acquired Ukraine.
- After Ukraine became Russian again, its nuclear weapons
would return to the region. This provocation would likely
inspire Norway, Finland, & Moldova to join NATO, & become
nuclear weapon sharing states.
Ref...
NATO on the Map
List of states with nuclear weapons - Wikipedia

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not so sure of that, although who can read the mind of Putin?

We can surmise his intentions from his statements
& actions. This is necessary in order to design the
best response.

If we're trying to imagine ourselves inside the mind of Vladimir Putin, then he might see the invasion of Ukraine in much the same way Lincoln would have viewed the invasion of the Confederate States of America. In other words, he likely sees it as an internal matter and that other nations should not interfere or comment. If so, that would reduce the likelihood of any desire to attack any countries he would see as non-Russian.

Like other former Soviet satellites, Ukraine has been a separate
country since 1991 (USSR's dissolution). The several decades
of independence contrast with the Confederacy's immediacy
of secession. And USA didn't dissolve, unlike USSR.

The Russians have wanted to retake Constantinople for Orthodoxy since 1453. If Putin is thinking along the same lines as ancient Russian monarchs, then that may be the direction he might go. That they weren't a USSR satellite in the past is immaterial.

To find Putin's motives in what predecessors wanted over
half a millennium ago seems quite a stretch. And with
Turkey being a NATO nuclear weapon sharing country,
it would be a target likely off limits, even to Putin.