How the chickens learned the need to sit on it's eggs ?

[sunni56]

What process did God use to make humans, then, if not magic? What did he make them from, if not nothing?

Could he not have made them from their less complex / less fit ancestors, the same way he made every other life form on earth?

Just because you don't know, doesn't mean it's "magic" (which-in particular- has a derisory connotation).

He does whatever He wants.

 

[Falvlun]

How can one prove that there is no God (regardless of whether there is one), or that there is no soul (when it is not even a clearly defined concept)?

It's not about proving that God or a soul doesn't exist. It is about whether it is a reasonable, supportable, and/or probable hypothesis. God and souls are being offered as an alternative to scientific or naturalistic explanations. The question is then: are these hypotheses just as good or better?

I agree that it is perfectly possible that God poofed everything into existence last Thursday and just made it look very old, gave us memories, made it look like organisms evolved.

But is that a likely hypothesis? Is it more reasonable to believe that hypothesis over a simpler one? Or over one for which we have scientific evidence?

Everyone needs to make that decision for him or herself. But that is the real question.

 

[Falvlun]

Just because you don't know, doesn't mean it's "magic" (which-in particular- has a derisory connotation).

He does whatever He wants.

Maybe he wanted to do evolution, without any input. That's possible too, then.

 

[sunni56]

Maybe he wanted to do evolution, without any input. That's possible too, then.

Well, firstly God always has input. We wouldn't be able to even breathe without God causing our respiratory organs to function in that particular moment. Everything requires God's input.

Secondly, God could have caused the theory of evolution to occur, yes, right down to the last letter. But the question is, did He? The answer according to the Qur'an is, no. Human beings are an exception.

 

[Falvlun]

Well, firstly God always has input. We wouldn't be able to even breathe without God causing our respiratory organs to function in that particular moment. Everything requires God's input.

Then God couldn't do anything he wanted.

Secondly, God could have caused the theory of evolution to occur, yes, right down to the last letter. But the question is, did He? The answer according to the Qur'an is, no. Human beings are an exception.

Does the Koran say specifically how God created humans?

 

[painted wolf]

"magic wand"? "out of nothing"? I don't respond to such ridiculous insinuations. And as for asking "why?", it is pretty clear that I am not God, so I wouldn't know the answer to that. Also your initial assumption is without basis.

If you don't know the answer to that then how do you know evolution couldn't have been how God did it?

wa:do

 

[sunni56]

Then God couldn't do anything he wanted.

Does the Koran say specifically how God created humans?

I don't understand..

Yes. But not in great detail, but we know enough to conclude that God created Adam directly, and in the form of a human being (i.e fashioned him).

 

[darkendless]

This has taken a turn for the worst. Why are we talking about what God/Allah can or cannot do?

 

[sunni56]

If you don't know the answer to that then how do you know evolution couldn't have been how God did it?

wa:do

Because we know enough to conclude that. It is very blatantly obvious from the Qur'an, the language that it uses clearly shows that God created Adam and fashioned him as a human being directly. So much so that in other texts, such as the hadith, we have more information about how Satan circled around this new creation that is lying very still who is not alive yet. Satan literally prodded and poked Adam in various parts of his body to see what this new creation feels like. So the details of the Qur'an and hadith leave absolutely no room for an evolutionary intepretation of the creation of mankind

 

[darkendless]

Because we know enough to conclude that. It is very blatantly obvious from the Qur'an, the language that it uses clearly shows that God created Adam and fashioned him as a human being directly. So much so that in other texts, such as the hadith, we have more information about how Satan circled around this new creation that is lying very still who is not alive yet. Satan literally prodded and poked Adam in various parts of his body to see what this new creation feels like. So the details of the Qur'an and hadith leave absolutely no room for an evolutionary intepretation of the creation of mankind

The Quran is not evidence of anything other than the beliefs of those that wrote it.

It may hold value to adherents but to those of us who are not faithful, why would you expect us to also trust what it says?

 

[sunni56]

why would you expect us to also trust what it says?

I don't I was explaining why it is not possible to reconcile the theory of evolution with Islam...try and follow the convo closely please.

 

[darkendless]

I don't I was explaining why it is not possible to reconcile the theory of evolution with Islam...try and follow the convo closely please.

But many times on this forum the contrary has been argued.

There seems to be no consensus from believers regarding whether or not evolution should be considered by Islam.

 

[sunni56]

But many times on this forum the contrary has been argued.

There seems to be no consensus from believers regarding whether or not evolution should be considered by Islam.

No consensus needs to be sought because the text is very clear. I can crush anyone in a debate on this. Nobody can argue that the Qur'an is being "allegorical" or some bizarre interpretation. In fact, even the Muslims that believe in "evolution" do not believe in the evolution that is advocated by scientists. What I'm discussing, is the theory of evolution as it is understood by the scientific community. That is the understanding which is not compatible with the Qur'anic text, the genesis account.

 

[darkendless]

No consensus needs to be sought because the text is very clear. I can crush anyone in a debate on this. Nobody can argue that the Qur'an is being "allegorical" or some bizarre interpretation. In fact, even the Muslims that believe in "evolution" do not believe in the evolution that is advocated by scientists. What I'm discussing, is the theory of evolution as it is understood by the scientific community. That is the understanding which is not compatible with the Qur'anic text, the genesis account.

I agree with you, but does that mean Islam totally rejects evolution or can adherents accept religion based on available evidence?

Is there a conflict of ideas between science and Islam on this front?

 

[painted wolf]

Because we know enough to conclude that. It is very blatantly obvious from the Qur'an, the language that it uses clearly shows that God created Adam and fashioned him as a human being directly. So much so that in other texts, such as the hadith, we have more information about how Satan circled around this new creation that is lying very still who is not alive yet. Satan literally prodded and poked Adam in various parts of his body to see what this new creation feels like. So the details of the Qur'an and hadith leave absolutely no room for an evolutionary intepretation of the creation of mankind

So god sculpts Adam out of mud/dirt... but what about everything else?

wa:do

 

[sunni56]

I agree with you, but does that mean Islam totally rejects evolution or can adherents accept religion based on available evidence?

Is there a conflict of ideas between science and Islam on this front?

Well, look. I don't blame anyone for believing in the theory of evolution at all, especially those who do not believe in the Qur'an in the first place. In fact, I would have probably done the exact same thing. The only reason why I don't accept this theory- as plausible as it sounds- is because I believe that the Qur'an is the speech of Lord of All-Creation. In other words, there is no doubt in my mind that the Qur'an is factual, accurate and God's speech. So I'm not going to give up something that I know is a fact, for something that I'm unsure about. There's a saying in Arabic, "certainty supersedes doubt". In other words, I'm an ideologue of Islam.

Let me try and explain, although it's a bit simplistic. Imagine a man gathers up some sand on a shore or something and then walks away. Now, imagine that I saw the man actually doing it. Is it possible for me to believe that the wind did it? The wind could have done it, yes. But that's not what I saw, I already have no doubt that the man did, so it is not possible to discard something that you know for an alternative explanation.

 

[sunni56]

So god sculpts Adam out of mud/dirt... but what about everything else?

wa:do

I don't know the details Although I know for a fact that iron for example, did not originate on earth. It must have come from a meteor or something because the Qur'an says that iron was sent down to Earth from somewhere.

 

[darkendless]

Well, look. I don't blame anyone for believing in the theory of evolution at all

I disagree with the use of the word belief. I don't support the TOE because I believe in it, I support it because the evidence presented by its proponents is solid.

Let me try and explain, although it's a bit simplistic. Imagine a man gathers up some sand on a shore or something and then walks away. Now, imagine that I saw the man actually doing it. Is it possible for me to believe that the wind did it? The wind could have done it, yes. But that's not what I saw, I already have no doubt that the man did, so it is not possible to discard something that you know for an alternative explanation.

I think I understand your position, that was a good analogy

 

[painted wolf]

I don't know the details Although I know for a fact that iron for example, did not originate on earth. It must have come from a meteor or something because the Qur'an says that iron was sent down to Earth from somewhere.

Well technically the whole Earth originated from somewhere/something else.

wa:do

 

[darkendless]

I don't know the details Although I know for a fact that iron for example, did not originate on earth. It must have come from a meteor or something because the Qur'an says that iron was sent down to Earth from somewhere.

Metallic Iron is from meteors, its pretty amazing.

Iron can also form in sedimentary rocks. We call the rocks that often hold it "Ironstone" in my industry