How to convert a Hindu

[ratikala]

Namaste,

I mean this in all respect and kindness...It's a book that calls for the deaths of those who do not worship the "one true god." That includes you and I.

Just because it may upset some people because Christianity is the norm, that does not mean that the book is not harmful.

two wrongs do not make a right , fight ignorance with wisdom and insight .

 

[Ashoka]

two wrongs do not make a right , fight ignorance with wisdom and insight .

I agree that two wrongs do not make a right, but why, in your opinion, would it be wrong to get rid of something so negative and hateful?

I do not mean that we should hate Christians or Muslims, and I do agree we should fight their ignorance with wisdom and insight. But, would that not mean getting rid of the source of the ignorance?

Namaskar.

 

[ratikala]

I agree that two wrongs do not make a right, but why, in your opinion, would it be wrong to get rid of something so negative and hateful?

if you burn their books surely they will burn ours , this merely fuels anger and ignorance .

I do not mean that we should hate Christians or Muslims, and I do agree we should fight their ignorance with wisdom and insight. But, would that not mean getting rid of the source of the ignorance?

Namaskar.

if we show them concideration and respect then surely we will win their respect also .

the source of ignorance is not the book , it is in the minds of those that hold it .
and I hasten to add not all .

I would take that book back to the church and explain the possible embarasment that might have been caused and ask politely that children not be put in unfair positions in future . this is the only logical thing to do .

 

[Vinayaka]

and you think that was clever ???

No. As I said, I was taken aback at the time. I did not expect it to happen. I DID NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO. I had never thought it through. And this is the same reason most Hindus in India will accept a bible. They are taken off guard, they do not know what to do. It should never happen in the first place. That was the point.

 

[Vinayaka]

I would take that book back to the church and explain the possible embarasment that might have been caused and ask politely that children not be put in unfair positions in future . this is the only logical thing to do .

The Gideons http://www.gideons.ca/Home.aspx are not a church, but are a bible distribution society. They get permission form state legislators, local school districts, or whomever is in charge of such things. One teacher stating what he thinks has absolutely no impact whatsoever.

 

[TatTvamAsi]

if we show them concideration and respect then surely we will win their respect also .

This is the quintessence of the ignorance of modern "Hindus". They think that if we keep extending our hand as a good gesture, they will surely turn around and reciprocate.

History has shown time and again that the exact opposite is true when it comes to the Abrahamics.

I recommend everyone to read Being Different (Home | Being Different the Book), also by Rajiv Malhotra. It talks about the non-negotiable differences between the Dharmic traditions and the Abrahamic ones.

If Hindus were to put a statue of jesus in a Hindu temple, some Hindus will object but most wouldn't go crazy over it. Yet, not a single Christian church would reciprocate the gesture and put a mUrtI of Sri Krishna there! To think otherwise is disingenuous.

Gandhi sang a song about Allah and Ishwar being the 'same' - yet, it was only he, and Hindus, who sang that song. Do you think any Muslim sang that song? They CANNOT sing that song because of their religion! Or even considered it as 'true'? Why should this gesture be only one way? It is setting up Hindus to get destroyed. Christians CANNOT accept that there are "other" ways to God (heaven etc.) except through belief in jesus according to the Nicene Creed. If 'liberal' Christians do claim such a thing, they are not really Christian - they are not following their religion devoutly! That is why no church would accede to a demand that jesus is NOT the only way. It is fundamental to their religion - their belief! It is not an erratic person here or there or a group of people who are "bad". Those seemingly "bad" Christians/Muslims are actually "good" Christians/Muslims since they are following their religion to the T.

The Taliban think they are the foremost practitioners of Islam. They think even other brands of Islam (Shia, Ismaili, Ahmadiyya etc.) are heretical and want to eliminate them. They are "good" Muslims since they follow the diktats of their religion very closely (or at least their interpretation of it). The so-called "moderate" Muslim is an aberration - a bad example of a Muslim. Likewise, Christians who claim that there are "other paths" or that one does NOT have to be a Christian to attain heaven, are not "good" Christians.

In other words, a "good" Christian/Muslim is actually a "bad" person. A "bad" Christian/Muslim is actually a good person! Until people realize this, we are going to go around in circles claiming that only a "few" people of those religions are "bad" and that the 'religion' itself is not! Nothing could be further than the truth! Remember, ideology is everything! The same Germans who in the last few centuries were at the forefront of Western civilization (science, mathematics, philosophy, music) switched like a bulb into an efficient killing machine during WWII. Why? The ideology of Nazism - the resultant brainwashing from the Nazis caused an entire country to go berserk and cause the deaths of more than 50M people! One could claim that he is a "Nazi" but emulates Hitler's vegetarianism, teetotalism, and oratory. Yet, when we hear the word "Nazism", we associate it with mass murder. Likewise, cherry picking from the Abrahamic tradition and claiming that they are 'peaceful' religions is blatantly false.

The same "Pakistanis" were Hindus about a millenia ago. Look at them now - want to exterminate every Hindu/Buddhist/Jain/Sikh on the planet. Of course, not all Pakistanis are like that; but their overall attitude towards Dharmic traditions is that of extreme antipathy.

We can remain confident and proud of Hinduism/India without having to dilute our differences and say 'we are all the same' (or all religions are the same).

Hindus are terrified of being different due to a severe inferiority complex that has developed over the past millenia due to foreign rule in India.

Vinayaka seems to be a rare breed who sees through the muck and mire that is universalism that is associated with Hinduism today. Tradition and rigor gives our sAdhanA shape and context as a bottle gives shape and form when holding liquid.

I agree with someone who said that Yoga became popular in India in recent times due to non-Indians accepting it. It is with an aggrieved heart that I feel that Hinduism's beauty has to be brought to the forefront by non-Indians as well. Since any Indian who talks strongly FOR Hindu Dharma, gets lambasted by fellow "Hindus".

There comes a time when diplomacy simply won't work. Hindus dealing with Abrahamics is very similar to this. They will never reciprocate the respect, affection, or kindness shown by Hindus. Europe remained Christian not because the Pope decided to sit with the Seljuk Turks for Starbucks. They sent an entire army and "God's will" (from Kingdom of Heaven ) to smash the Muslim marauders of Jerusalem.

Gandhi, advising humanity at large to eschew violence said, "An eye for an eye makes the world blind!"

I say, "Two eyes for an eye and a whole jaw for a tooth!"

Thus spake TatTvamAsi.

And, remember, context is everything. Apad dharma is the need of the hour for Hindus. Singing "bhajans" and eating gulab jamun can wait.

 

[Kalidas]

This is the quintessence of the ignorance of modern "Hindus". They think that if we keep extending our hand as a good gesture, they will surely turn around and reciprocate.

History has shown time and again that the exact opposite is true when it comes to the Abrahamics.

I recommend everyone to read Being Different (Home | Being Different the Book), also by Rajiv Malhotra. It talks about the non-negotiable differences between the Dharmic traditions and the Abrahamic ones.

If Hindus were to put a statue of jesus in a Hindu temple, some Hindus will object but most wouldn't go crazy over it. Yet, not a single Christian church would reciprocate the gesture and put a mUrtI of Sri Krishna there! To think otherwise is disingenuous.

Gandhi sang a song about Allah and Ishwar being the 'same' - yet, it was only he, and Hindus, who sang that song. Do you think any Muslim sang that song? They CANNOT sing that song because of their religion! Or even considered it as 'true'? Why should this gesture be only one way? It is setting up Hindus to get destroyed. Christians CANNOT accept that there are "other" ways to God (heaven etc.) except through belief in jesus according to the Nicene Creed. If 'liberal' Christians do claim such a thing, they are not really Christian - they are not following their religion devoutly! That is why no church would accede to a demand that jesus is NOT the only way. It is fundamental to their religion - their belief! It is not an erratic person here or there or a group of people who are "bad". Those seemingly "bad" Christians/Muslims are actually "good" Christians/Muslims since they are following their religion to the T.

The Taliban think they are the foremost practitioners of Islam. They think even other brands of Islam (Shia, Ismaili, Ahmadiyya etc.) are heretical and want to eliminate them. They are "good" Muslims since they follow the diktats of their religion very closely (or at least their interpretation of it). The so-called "moderate" Muslim is an aberration - a bad example of a Muslim. Likewise, Christians who claim that there are "other paths" or that one does NOT have to be a Christian to attain heaven, are not "good" Christians.

In other words, a "good" Christian/Muslim is actually a "bad" person. A "bad" Christian/Muslim is actually a good person! Until people realize this, we are going to go around in circles claiming that only a "few" people of those religions are "bad" and that the 'religion' itself is not! Nothing could be further than the truth! Remember, ideology is everything! The same Germans who in the last few centuries were at the forefront of Western civilization (science, mathematics, philosophy, music) switched like a bulb into an efficient killing machine during WWII. Why? The ideology of Nazism - the resultant brainwashing from the Nazis caused an entire country to go berserk and cause the deaths of more than 50M people! One could claim that he is a "Nazi" but emulates Hitler's vegetarianism, teetotalism, and oratory. Yet, when we hear the word "Nazism", we associate it with mass murder. Likewise, cherry picking from the Abrahamic tradition and claiming that they are 'peaceful' religions is blatantly false.

The same "Pakistanis" were Hindus about a millenia ago. Look at them now - want to exterminate every Hindu/Buddhist/Jain/Sikh on the planet. Of course, not all Pakistanis are like that; but their overall attitude towards Dharmic traditions is that of extreme antipathy.

We can remain confident and proud of Hinduism/India without having to dilute our differences and say 'we are all the same' (or all religions are the same).

Hindus are terrified of being different due to a severe inferiority complex that has developed over the past millenia due to foreign rule in India.

Vinayaka (are you Eastern Mind btw?) seems to be a rare breed who sees through the muck and mire that is universalism that is associated with Hinduism today. Tradition and rigor gives our sAdhanA shape and context as a bottle gives shape and form when holding liquid.

I agree with someone who said that Yoga became popular in India in recent times due to non-Indians accepting it. It is with an aggrieved heart that I feel that Hinduism's beauty has to be brought to the forefront by non-Indians as well. Since any Indian who talks strongly FOR Hindu Dharma, gets lambasted by fellow "Hindus".

There comes a time when diplomacy simply won't work. Hindus dealing with Abrahamics is very similar to this. They will never reciprocate the respect, affection, or kindness shown by Hindus. Europe remained Christian not because the Pope decided to sit with the Seljuk Turks for Starbucks. They sent an entire army and "God's will" (from Kingdom of Heaven ) to smash the Muslim marauders of Jerusalem.

Gandhi, advising humanity at large to eschew violence said, "An eye for an eye makes the world blind!"

I say, "Two eyes for an eye and a whole jaw for a tooth!"

Thus spake TatTvamAsi.

And, remember, context is everything. Apad dharma is the need of the hour for Hindus. Singing "bhajans" and eating gulab jamun can wait.

Sooo you wish to see Hinduism become the monster you wish to see destroyed?

 

[VajraYosid]

I don't meant ethnicity. I just want to say that those hindus who live in India, so I used term Indian Hindus.

Fair enough, my apologies for failing to get clear on your meaning.

 

[VajraYosid]

Sooo you wish to see Hinduism become the monster you wish to see destroyed?

Where in his post does he say that? The theme is simple: in dealing with those whose core doctrine calls for your destruction or conversion, with whom no true mutuality is possible, one must be steadfast without compromise. I disagree only with the 'two eyes for an eye' concept. Proportionately is central to justice.

The heart of Gandhi's idea of non-violence is correct, and it is generally true that radiating friendliness will cause reciprocal friendliness, and that a sterling commitment to principle will soften even the hardest hearts by example - but we are out of time to play any game whose public and political functions would resemble appeasement even slightly. Give an inch, and miles are taken.

Why should protecting the dharma cause it to become a monster?

 

[Kalidas]

Where in his post does he say that? The theme is simple: in dealing with those whose core doctrine calls for your destruction or conversion, with whom no true mutuality is possible, one must be steadfast without compromise. I disagree only with the 'two eyes for an eye' concept. Proportionately is central to justice.

The heart of Gandhi's idea of non-violence is correct, and it is generally true that radiating friendliness will cause reciprocal friendliness, and that a sterling commitment to principle will soften even the hardest hearts by example - but we are out of time to play any game whose public and political functions would resemble appeasement even slightly. Give an inch, and miles are taken.

Why should protecting the dharma cause it to become a monster?

Protecting and wanting to hurt people are two totally different concepts.

 

[Vinayaka]

My take, for what it's worth which ain't much is that there are years and years of built up frustration at the situation, and a seemingly lack of caring about it by the Indian government. So this frustration leads to more and more radical views over time, and that, although not what we would like to see, is at least understandable. If you aren't there to feel all that frustration, it's hard to say really. I wish some simpler steps were taken before it comes to that. We don't need another war. For example, the Sri Lankan war was preventable, in my opinion, but since they let it fester, and fester and fester, eventually all ____ broke loose.

 

[TatTvamAsi]

Sooo you wish to see Hinduism become the monster you wish to see destroyed?

Not at all. That is why I mentioned "APAD DHARMA". Read about it.

In extenuating circumstances, one may abandon dharma temporarily to "fix" the situation. Of course, in this particular context, I am talking about protecting ourselves from aggression (physical, cultural etc.). Nothing wrong with that. Also, I don't want to "hurt" people as long as they don't want to hurt me!

Mutual respect is important. Yet, a lot of the time, Hindus are expected to respect others when they are not shown any! Mutual is an important word - it goes both ways friend.

 

[Kalidas]

Not at all. That is why I mentioned "APAD DHARMA". Read about it.

In extenuating circumstances, one may abandon dharma temporarily to "fix" the situation. Of course, in this particular context, I am talking about protecting ourselves from aggression (physical, cultural etc.). Nothing wrong with that. Also, I don't want to "hurt" people as long as they don't want to hurt me!

Mutual respect is important. Yet, a lot of the time, Hindus are expected to respect others when they are not shown any! Mutual is an important word - it goes both ways friend.

Okay. I can respect THAT view. Yes agreed so long as Hindus stay apathetic to theaperape of eir culture things will get worse. Yet there must be a medium between non action and complete aggression.

I still stick with my idea of knowledge and charity. I believe knowledge is stronger then any sword, charity will let the Indian Hindus know that other Hindus around the world support them.

 

[Sumit]

charity will let the Indian Hindus know that other Hindus around the world support them.

Funding is not a problem, Hindus of India can raise funds easily (Hindus collect 100 time more fund than christian missionaries but that fund is not used). The major problem is moral downfall, greediness and ignorance of Indian Hindus.

 

[Aum_425]

Does no one see the irony in this thread?

Call me crazy, but unity is not reached by a constant engrossment of paranoia, a clutching of identities that drive men to division.

Let others find solace in forms of identity, find yours at the feet of your God and watch the world run crazy around you!

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram ,

before I begin to reply to your post , I must ask why you have not replied to my questions to you , .. post 167 but you prefer to pick out something I said to another ?

This is the quintessence of the ignorance of modern "Hindus". They think that if we keep extending our hand as a good gesture, they will surely turn around and reciprocate.

prabhu I think you are un aware of the teachings of your own professed faith , but then it is becoming clearer and clearer that you are a political hindu rather than a religiously motivated hindu .

History has shown time and again that the exact opposite is true when it comes to the Abrahamics.

I suggest if you wish to save the hindu nation from the clutches of the abrahamics then you start learning more about sanatana dharma .

you may have heard sri krsna described as 'all atractive' , in which case you might possibly be capable of reflecting on 'attractiveness' and asking why christianity is more attractive to native indians than their own sanatana dharma ?

if we want to stop people converting then we need to offer them more than the christians have to offer and to do this we need to understand our own faith and to teach it with grace .

I recommend everyone to read Being Different (Home | Being Different the Book), also by Rajiv Malhotra. It talks about the non-negotiable differences between the Dharmic traditions and the Abrahamic ones.

then learn to be attractive

If Hindus were to put a statue of jesus in a Hindu temple, some Hindus will object but most wouldn't go crazy over it. Yet, not a single Christian church would reciprocate the gesture and put a mUrtI of Sri Krishna there! To think otherwise is disingenuous.

in truth hinduism has allways been in flux , it is a tollerant religion , are you suggesting religious fanaticism simply because others do it ?

Gandhi sang a song about Allah and Ishwar being the 'same' -

''ishwara allah IS YOUR NAME, .....''

yet, it was only he, and Hindus, who sang that song. Do you think any Muslim sang that song? They CANNOT sing that song because of their religion! Or even considered it as 'true'? Why should this gesture be only one way?

why ? .... because ghandi ji and his hindu nation that had inteligence and strength of conviction not to behave like two leged animals .

It is setting up Hindus to get destroyed.

no , .....it is teaching hindus to be better hindus, more tollerant hindus .

The Taliban think they are the foremost practitioners of Islam. They think even other brands of Islam (Shia, Ismaili, Ahmadiyya etc.) are heretical and want to eliminate them. They are "good" Muslims since they follow the diktats of their religion very closely (or at least their interpretation of it). The so-called "moderate" Muslim is an aberration - a bad example of a Muslim. Likewise, Christians who claim that there are "other paths" or that one does NOT have to be a Christian to attain heaven, are not "good" Christians.

I am not here to attack ignorance in the muslin faith this is hindu DIR
In other words, a "good" Christian/Muslim is actually a "bad" person. A "bad" Christian/Muslim is actually a good person! Until people realize this, we are going to go around in circles claiming that only a "few" people of those religions are "bad" and that the 'religion' itself is not! Nothing could be further than the truth! Remember, ideology is everything! The same Germans who in the last few centuries were at the forefront of Western civilization (science, mathematics, philosophy, music) switched like a bulb into an efficient killing machine during WWII. Why? The ideology of Nazism - the resultant brainwashing from the Nazis caused an entire country to go berserk and cause the deaths of more than 50M people! One could claim that he is a "Nazi" but emulates Hitler's vegetarianism, teetotalism, and oratory. Yet, when we hear the word "Nazism", we associate it with mass murder. Likewise, cherry picking from the Abrahamic tradition and claiming that they are 'peaceful' religions is blatantly false.[/QUOTE]

before we try to pass judgement on who is or is not a good muslim , chtistian or european citizen , let us look at ourselves and try to aquaint ourselves with our own dharma , then let us practice it .

The same "Pakistanis" were Hindus about a millenia ago. Look at them now - want to exterminate every Hindu/Buddhist/Jain/Sikh on the planet. Of course, not all Pakistanis are like that; but their overall attitude towards Dharmic traditions is that of extreme antipathy.

so you think the answer is to become equaly hostile ???

We can remain confident and proud of Hinduism/India without having to dilute our differences and say 'we are all the same' (or all religions are the same).

if we are proud of it and well we should be , ...then we should practice our own traditions with pride wnd with tollerance towards the traditions of others .

Hindus are terrified of being different due to a severe inferiority complex that has developed over the past millenia due to foreign rule in India.

from personal experience I do not find this so , .... I have met many hindus who are proud of their traditions and do not hanker after the materialism or philosopical leanings of the west , and who do not feel inferior , it is poverty that causes the feeling of inferiority , or the hankering after more than one needs .

Vinayaka seems to be a rare breed who sees through the muck and mire that is universalism that is associated with Hinduism today. Tradition and rigor gives our sAdhanA shape and context as a bottle gives shape and form when holding liquid.

I am equaly adamant about maintaining traditions , but with tollerance and understanding of others beleifs , lack of understanding breeds ignorance .

I agree with someone who said that Yoga became popular in India in recent times due to non-Indians accepting it.


It is with an aggrieved heart that I feel that Hinduism's beauty has to be brought to the forefront by non-Indians as well. Since any Indian who talks strongly FOR Hindu Dharma, gets lambasted by fellow "Hindus".

then you understand why some insist on teaching and practicing sanatana dharma . as one could ask what is ''hindu dharma'', ... what is a hindu , .... an inhabitant of hindustan a title bestowed opon it from outside !!!

There comes a time when diplomacy simply won't work. Hindus dealing with Abrahamics is very similar to this. They will never reciprocate the respect, affection, or kindness shown by Hindus. Europe remained Christian not because the Pope decided to sit with the Seljuk Turks for Starbucks. They sent an entire army and "God's will" (from Kingdom of Heaven ) to smash the Muslim marauders of Jerusalem.

yes and they are all still fighting .....

Gandhi, advising humanity at large to eschew violence said, "An eye for an eye makes the world blind!"

I say, "Two eyes for an eye and a whole jaw for a tooth!"

that is the kind of ignorance that will destroy the whole world

Thus spake TatTvamAsi.

you mean thus spoke ahamkara !

 

[satyaroop]

you may have heard sri krsna described as 'all atractive' , in which case you might possibly be capable of reflecting on 'attractiveness' and asking why christianity is more attractive to native indians than their own sanatana dharma ?

what does christianity offer that sanatan dharma/hinduism does not?

I'm going to try to answer this question, I'm not sure how accurate my answer is, but I'll try...

a way out of poverty?
Become a christian, get the perks

and some believe that the fact that the masses of hindus are suffering in poverty is not a mere coincidence.
keep them poor - keep them vulnerable to conversion

 

[VajraYosid]

I wonder how much of the sanctimony is rooted in naivety and ignorance. Very easy to pass such judgments from a distance.

 

[Vinayaka]

I wonder how much of the sanctimony is rooted in naivety and ignorance. Very easy to pass such judgments from a distance.

I think that's true. I used to frequent an Indian travel forum to plan pilgrimages. There were a lot of times someone would have this romantic sense of 'exotic India' and be all excited to go, and then when they went, it's "Oh my God, I just want to go home."

 

[Kalidas]

what does christianity offer that sanatan dharma/hinduism does not?

I'm going to try to answer this question, I'm not sure how accurate my answer is, but I'll try...

a way out of poverty?
Become a christian, get the perks

and some believe that the fact that the masses of hindus are suffering in poverty is not a mere coincidence.
keep them poor - keep them vulnerable to conversion

There is another that I have seen and been told to use. "Pascal's wager" (usually reserved for atheists but it can be equally effective for dharmic religions). The original idea is of god doesn't exist and your right nothing happens now I you don't believe in god and I'm right you go to hell.

Now let's look at it used against Hinduism. If you are right and Jesus is not mans savior you will just reincarnate(and still achieve moksha some day), yet if I am right and Jesus is savior you go to hell ( to correct some people Jesus actually never ever even uttered the word hell, so there actually is no "accept Jesus or burn" that was an idea spread by churches, probably for conversion.) Hell sounds scary so why risk it?