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How Would You Reform Islam?

How would you reform Islam?

  • My reforms would make it more traditional.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    25

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
What do you suppose the odds are that Islamic reform movements will, over perhaps the next 50 years, bring about a general liberalization of Islam?

How would you compare those odds to the odds that Islamic reform movements will over a similar time frame bring about a general retrenchment of conservative Islam?

Do you think any liberalization of Islam will to any great extent echo the European Enlightenment -- say, in adopting the Enlightenment principle that customs and practices must be based on reason, rather than merely customary or traditional? Or in adopting the Enlightenment principle that there ought to be a separation of religion and government?

BONUS QUESTION: If you were going to reform Islam, how exactly would you reform it?
 
Last edited:

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
I'd like to have a go at this. But first - it seems implicit in your question that 'liberal' values are desirable and 'conservative' values are not desirable. If I am correct - is the implication warranted?
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
What do you suppose the odds are that Islamic reform movements will, over perhaps the next 50 years, bring about a general liberalization of Islam?
Not good.
Based on similar historical paradigms, the Arab/ Muslim world will destroy large portions of planet Earth and hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people before they are immolated in their own Black Hole of Death and Destruction.
After that - pretty good chance of reform and liberalization.

How would you compare those odds to the odds that Islamic reform movements will over a similar time frame bring about a general retrenchment of conservative Islam?
Today's Islam IS the "Islamic Reform" movements.
The Death Cult of Wahhabism has replaced normative Sunni Islam as the influence of the tribe of al Saud/ al Wahhab spreads. After the conquest of the Arabian peninsula; the sack and rape of Mecca; and the now unbroken dominance of the tribe of al Saud in the world, the rest of of tribal Sunni Islam has fallen under the sway of Wahhabism. Every new "Sunni" sect of fanatical Islam has taken their core beliefs from the death cult of Wahhabism.
The remaking of Shia Islam is more recent but, the heretic death cult of Vilayat al Fiqh in Iran is now the predominant Shia death cult in the Middle East. Whether or not Shia Islam succumbs to this heresy as has Sunni Islam to Wahhabism, remains to be seen.

This IS Islamic Reform.

Do you think any liberalization of Islam will to any great extent echo the European Enlightenment -- say, in adopting the Enlightenment principle that customs and practices must be based on reason, rather than merely customary or traditional? Or in adopting the Enlightenment principle that there ought to be a separation of religion and government?

There is no liberalization currently in Islam.
However, the end result of "European Enlightenment" may mirror almost exactly the end result of the current "Islamic reform."
The "Enlightenment" was an attempt at a Secular understanding of the world after 300 years of the incredibly brutal and devastating Christian European Sectarian Civil World War called the "Reformation."
This "Reformation" massacred tens of millions, mostly European Christians, and devastated cities and towns all over the European continent and abroad; essentially depopulating and destroying Northern Europe at one point.
After the majority of both the "religious" and secular Europeans went bankrupt and could no longer fund the mercenary armies hired to kill each other, various so called thinkers and philosophers promulgated the "Enlightenment," figuring that anything had to be better than lifetimes of murder and annihilation in the Name of various gods and no gods.

It is quite possible that when the Arabs and Muslims have become exhausted after destroying each other; countless millions of non Arabs and non Muslims; and have irradiated or diseased large tracts of their "Enemies" land masses, they may find their own "Enlightenment."

Why not? The European Christians did.

BONUS QUESTION: If you were going to reform Islam, how exactly would you reform it?
I would find a group of militant Muslims who were willing to die for the sake of a Peaceful Islam and encourage them to arm and aggressively destroy all of the other mufsidun (evil doers who wage war not in accordance with the principles of the Koran) who are hell bent on destroying themselves and planet Earth.
Of course, then there would be the theological question of first finding a Righteous Caliph... However, I suspect that scholars of Islam could find their way around such theological questions.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I think that any reform that might take place to any large extent will directly be related to the extent that they are exposed to Western culture outside extremist propaganda.

This is true of any people and not just Muslims.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What do you suppose the odds are that Islamic reform movements will, over perhaps the next 50 years, bring about a general liberalization of Islam?

How would you compare those odds to the odds that Islamic reform movements will over a similar time frame bring about a general retrenchment of conservative Islam?

I expect both, but it will be far easier to have the retrenchment going. It is likely to happen earlier and more noticeably, at least at first.


Do you think any liberalization of Islam will to any great extent echo the European Enlightenment -- say, in adopting the Enlightenment principle that customs and practices must be based on reason, rather than merely customary or traditional?

Not particularly. I think it may arise out of a feeling of unease with social differences instead.


Or in adopting the Enlightenment principle that there ought to be a separation of religion and government?

That is too much to expect of Islam, IMO.


BONUS QUESTION: If you were going to reform Islam, how exactly would you reform it?

I would propose interpretations that emphasize the role of inspiration as opposed to literal belief.

And make a point of challenging the idea that belief in God is a prerequisite for proper religious practice, or for moral virtue.


I'd like to have a go at this. But first - it seems implicit in your question that 'liberal' values are desirable and 'conservative' values are not desirable. If I am correct - is the implication warranted?

The question is not directed to me, but I would hope the answer to be "yes".
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
I'd like to have a go at this. But first - it seems implicit in your question that 'liberal' values are desirable and 'conservative' values are not desirable. If I am correct - is the implication warranted?

Well, we have seen what conservative islam looks like: Taliban, al-shabab, boko haram etc.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I'd like to have a go at this. But first - it seems implicit in your question that 'liberal' values are desirable and 'conservative' values are not desirable. If I am correct - is the implication warranted?

Well, liberal values might seem desirable to Westerners, but I tried to phrase my questions in ways that anyone who wanted to reform Islam to make it more conservative could have a say too.
 

seeking4truth

Active Member
Islamic reform has begun.
What you see and hear in the news is the decay of the non-reformed Islam.
The publicity given to the extreme elements of decaying Islam will repel many and attract some. It is a self destructive process.
If this destruction is encouraged by different groups for their own purposes it will destroy itself and others in the process.
An Overview
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Let me preface by putting forward my deep admiration for Islam. I think we in the west often mistake Islam for a homogeneous entity when it is very much a heterogeneous entity. I think Islam is constantly reforming itself to suit the cultural environment in which it finds itself. I think it can do so because the core message of Islam, i.e. submission to Gods will is one that transcends culture.
Fruitcakes and violent crackpots with deluded dreams that belong in the medieval period grab headlines, but all over the world there are billions of Muslims are quietly living the Peace that is Islam. I think the future belongs to them.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I think that any reform that might take place to any large extent will directly be related to the extent that they are exposed to Western culture outside extremist propaganda.

How significant do you think the internet will be in facilitating that?
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
What do you suppose the odds are that Islamic reform movements will, over perhaps the next 50 years, bring about a general liberalization of Islam?

How would you compare those odds to the odds that Islamic reform movements will over a similar time frame bring about a general retrenchment of conservative Islam?

Do you think any liberalization of Islam will to any great extent echo the European Enlightenment -- say, in adopting the Enlightenment principle that customs and practices must be based on reason, rather than merely customary or traditional? Or in adopting the Enlightenment principle that there ought to be a separation of religion and government?

BONUS QUESTION: If you were going to reform Islam, how exactly would you reform it?

I would reform it to the point that it was indistinguishable from deism.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Not good.
Based on similar historical paradigms, the Arab/ Muslim world will destroy large portions of planet Earth and hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people before they are immolated in their own Black Hole of Death and Destruction.
After that - pretty good chance of reform and liberalization.


Today's Islam IS the "Islamic Reform" movements.
The Death Cult of Wahhabism has replaced normative Sunni Islam as the influence of the tribe of al Saud/ al Wahhab spreads. After the conquest of the Arabian peninsula; the sack and rape of Mecca; and the now unbroken dominance of the tribe of al Saud in the world, the rest of of tribal Sunni Islam has fallen under the sway of Wahhabism. Every new "Sunni" sect of fanatical Islam has taken their core beliefs from the death cult of Wahhabism.
The remaking of Shia Islam is more recent but, the heretic death cult of Vilayat al Fiqh in Iran is now the predominant Shia death cult in the Middle East. Whether or not Shia Islam succumbs to this heresy as has Sunni Islam to Wahhabism, remains to be seen.

This IS Islamic Reform.



There is no liberalization currently in Islam.
However, the end result of "European Enlightenment" may mirror almost exactly the end result of the current "Islamic reform."
The "Enlightenment" was an attempt at a Secular understanding of the world after 300 years of the incredibly brutal and devastating Christian European Sectarian Civil World War called the "Reformation."
This "Reformation" massacred tens of millions, mostly European Christians, and devastated cities and towns all over the European continent and abroad; essentially depopulating and destroying Northern Europe at one point.
After the majority of both the "religious" and secular Europeans went bankrupt and could no longer fund the mercenary armies hired to kill each other, various so called thinkers and philosophers promulgated the "Enlightenment," figuring that anything had to be better than lifetimes of murder and annihilation in the Name of various gods and no gods.

It is quite possible that when the Arabs and Muslims have become exhausted after destroying each other; countless millions of non Arabs and non Muslims; and have irradiated or diseased large tracts of their "Enemies" land masses, they may find their own "Enlightenment."

Why not? The European Christians did.


I would find a group of militant Muslims who were willing to die for the sake of a Peaceful Islam and encourage them to arm and aggressively destroy all of the other mufsidun (evil doers who wage war not in accordance with the principles of the Koran) who are hell bent on destroying themselves and planet Earth.
Of course, then there would be the theological question of first finding a Righteous Caliph... However, I suspect that scholars of Islam could find their way around such theological questions.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy9tNyp03M0
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
Based on your desire for me to view your Youtube video, it would appear that you disagree with my assessment.
Why?
I saw nothing in the very erudite speaker in the video that contradicts anything I wrote.
I actually enjoyed the video as it largely reflects my own views on Islam - except when the speaker was 100% factually incorrect.
For instance -
The first time, about 7:23 minutes into the video, where he begins to actually address terrorism and Islam, he quotes categorically: "what nearly all suicide terrorists have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland..."
This is utter nonsense.

When a speaker starts quoting nonsense to claim that Islam is not guilty of fostering, as the speaker names, "suicide terrorism" in the Name of any particular Flavor of Islamic or Arabic Death Cult for the sole purpose of dominating other Muslim or Arabic groups and nations, then that speaker loses all credibility.
Why would he believe this?
Why would you believe this?
You think that Syria; Iran; Turkey; Pakistan; Jordan; Lebanon; Egypt; Sudan; Tunisia, etc., etc., etc., all all murdering each other in order to "compel modern democracies to withdraw their military forces?"

Perhaps you have a more cogent objection to what I wrote?
No?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
What do you suppose the odds are that Islamic reform movements will, over perhaps the next 50 years, bring about a general liberalization of Islam?

How would you compare those odds to the odds that Islamic reform movements will over a similar time frame bring about a general retrenchment of conservative Islam?

Do you think any liberalization of Islam will to any great extent echo the European Enlightenment -- say, in adopting the Enlightenment principle that customs and practices must be based on reason, rather than merely customary or traditional? Or in adopting the Enlightenment principle that there ought to be a separation of religion and government?

BONUS QUESTION: If you were going to reform Islam, how exactly would you reform it?


Well, actually, if the recent threads are any indication - :D - All of the religions of Abraham appear to be "reforming" their religions, by fudging harsh text to mean something softer. This is actually good for the rest of us.


However - the question remains - in Islam for instance - as to their actually accepting it as such. Muslim terrorist groups are obviously interpreting these texts to mean kill non-believers.


Will they accept such changes over time? I hope so.


*
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
How significant do you think the internet will be in facilitating that?

At this point, I think the internet represents the vehicle for change.

TV and other media, no longer seem to have the primacy it once did. I think that can change if some new technology develops that people move to, the way they moved from radio to TV to internet. But at this point, I can't imagine it.

The question though is how long it will take for it to have an affect. Governments can and do impose limits on internet usage and that probably hampers the pace of the change. But ultimately, I think because internet usage is so universal, it will be virtually impossible to completely cut off that exposure and eventually it will permeate enough as to produce a generation of Islamic leaders that will start the path of change.
 
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