I Am A Good Person, Therefore, I'm Going To Heaven!

[Desert Snake]

But various laws have changed considerably. What about the eating of pork or not working on the sabbath? And Jesus didn't take our place in he'll for eternity.

Jesus blatantly broke the Shabbat. I hope you aren't trying to use Him as an example, in this instance. The dietary laws are also explained/ the modification,, in Scripture.

 

[leibowde84]

Here is where you are wrong. The Bible was written by the Holy Spirit through men not by men!

This is merely a claim, but I welcome historical evidence or reasoning to support this claim. And, I doubt that God would be cruel enough to expect us to merely take the word of the men who wrote the Bible merely because they say so. Something that important should be questioned, studied, investigated, and truly contemplated. Obviously, every scripture of any faith claims to be the word of God, and not all of them can actually be so.

Also, there are various contradictions inherent in the Gospels (just as an example). Most deal with nothing more than mere changes in numbering, names, places, etc. But, if the Holy Spirit was responsible for all of the gospels, letters, acts, etc., it would be expected that they wouldn't exist whatsoever. That is one of many reasons why I find blind faith in the Bible to be unreasonable.

God gave you the free will to accept or reject His Word.

I accept the Bible 100%.

You're wrong about Paul. Jesus most certainly was alive when Paul met Him. He is still alive and will forever be!!

Don't shortchange Paul just because he did not meet Jesus when He walked the earth.

I don't accept or reject the Bible in its entirety. I do a ton of research, spiritual and mental contemplation along with discussing the topic with theological experts and reading their impressions and thoughts. I find great enjoyment in exploring what is written about the historicity, plausibility, and historical context of the various writings included in scripture. From spending time doing this, I have found it foolish to accept or reject the Bible in its entirety. According to the majority of experts in the field of anthropology and ancient history, many of the books included in it, including the gospels, were written by unknown authors and merely named for certain apostles/disciples of Jesus. Further, many experts disagree as to interpreting what is written in this ancient collection of books. So, I doubt I will ever be able to come to a complete and accurate understanding of the texts, but I do enjoy the journey.

So, long story short, I ask questions, look into the history, and try to come to a more comprehensive understanding of what is claimed in the Bible.

If you have chosen to not believe the Bible, I'm curious what you do believe in? Your own wisdom perhaps? I ask that with all due respect.

I certainly don't believe in my own wisdom in the least. I do, however, try to use the wisdom of experts; men and women who have spent their professional careers studying the writings and other ancient texts and evidence in an attempt to get to the actual truth behind it. I am in a constant effort to put work and effort into getting to the authenticity of anything claimed in the Bible. If God wants to punish me for attempting to get a better understanding of his will, that is up to God. But, I doubt God is that unreasonable.

I went to a jesuit high school, and they always encouraged my skepticism, urging me to explore the history, plausibility and credibility of the biblical authors rather than blindly accepting every claim they make. I tend to agree with that.

If you believe in Jesus at all, then you believe the Bible, which is His story. So you pick and choose what to believe and toss the rest out. That's what I meant when I asked if you depend upon your own wisdom for answers. Again, no offense meant.

If you think that I "pick and choose" after reading this reply, then you haven't respectfully tried to understand my explanation. In no way do I arbitrarily or subjectively "pick and choose". I haven't "picked" or "chosen" anything quite yet. There are certain things I lean toward being accurate, but still am searching for certainty. And, there are things that seem outright incorrect and unreasonable when it comes to Jesus' teachings. But, still, I try to explore them as well.

Does that make sense?

 

[leibowde84]

Jesus blatantly broke the Shabbat. I hope you aren't trying to use Him as an example, in this instance. The dietary laws are also explained/ the modification,, in Scripture.

If there was a modification, then the laws changed. So, why couldn't the law be changed when it came to Jesus having to die and suffer for our sins. And, why isn't Jesus in hell for eternity if the law truly had to be fulfilled?

 

[leibowde84]

Of course there are numerous laws in the Bible. Natural law, Mosaic Law, the law of faith. What law you live by is the one you will be judged by. Now for some clarification, the wages of sin is death not eternal punishment.

But, we all still die, so what changed with Jesus' death?

 

[Desert Snake]

If there was a modification, then the laws changed. So, why couldn't the law be changed when it came to Jesus having to die and suffer for our sins. And, why isn't Jesus in hell for eternity if the law truly had to be fulfilled?

Because you are associating the temple sacrifice to an exact replica of the ''sacrifice'', that Jesus performed for His followers/ They're different , in my opinion; completely different. They are Scripturally associated, simply because sacrifice in any spiritual capacity, ie Temple sacrifice, or Jesus's sacrifice, is similar in concept. The concept, is where the sameness ends.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). We will be judged according to what we have done (Rom. 2:6).

But the passage you just quoted implies that people will be granted or denied entry into the kingdom of heaven according to what they've done.

Do you disagree with what Jesus said in Matthew 7:21 (quoted in my last post)?

Do you?

I don't believe that Heaven exists, so from my perspective, musing about how one gets there is putting the cart before the horse. Still, I can consider whether Christian beliefs are internally consistent.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Um, maybe it's because I did not sleep well last night but I missed the relevance.

You said that just forgiveness alone wouldn't be enough to satisfy justice. Assuming that this was supposed to relate to Jesus in some way, I'm trying to figure out how the painful execution of the only truly innocent man in existence - i.e. a total miscarriage of justice - would make the situation any more just, let alone just enough for a holy god.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Same here!

Re-phrasing:

Sandy argued that it wouldn't be just for God to simply forgive everyone's sins.

The only difference between forgiving everyone's sins after Jesus' crucifixion and just forgiving everyone's sins without nailing anyone to anything at all is Jesus' crucifixion.

Now... to me, torturing an innocent man to death is the OPPOSITE of just. But I take it that you and Sandy not only think that it is just, but that it's so overwhelmingly just that it makes up for whatever injustice you think is present in simply forgiving sin without all the cross stuff.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you believe in Jesus at all, then you believe the Bible, which is His story. So you pick and choose what to believe and toss the rest out. That's what I meant when I asked if you depend upon your own wisdom for answers. Again, no offense meant.

Even if you judge the entire Bible to be correct, you're still depending on your own wisdom for answers. You pick and choose what to believe, too - you just pick all of it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Jesus is the way. No one can come to the Father unless they go through Jesus..

In effect, you are saying that only people who believe in Almighty God AS YOU DO can go to paradise/heaven

What a shame .. there are billions of people who believe in God and righteousness, but they have all been brainwashed into thinking that only 'their lot' will achieve success

I think you'll find that satan is more clever than you think .. he is the one responsible for spreading arrogance

 

[leibowde84]

Because you are associating the temple sacrifice to an exact replica of the ''sacrifice'', that Jesus performed for His followers/ They're different , in my opinion; completely different. They are Scripturally associated, simply because sacrifice in any spiritual capacity, ie Temple sacrifice, or Jesus's sacrifice, is similar in concept. The concept, is where the sameness ends.

So, answer me this. Can laws be modified or not? Is it only certain laws? If so, which laws specifically?

 

[Desert Snake]

So, answer me this. Can laws be modified or not? Is it only certain laws? If so, which laws specifically?

Technically, most of the laws are redacted, for Xians. That being said, the choice is ultimately up to you /?/ /your a Xian from your listed religion/, ; some laws are outright redacted, or not applicable, like circumcision, and possibly a ''strict'', neccesitation regarding Shabbat or Sunday Sabbath; however, again, it's the persons choice, concerning Sabbath or Sunday Sabbath rules.
concise answer, technically, xians are pretty justified in making most of these decisions, via personal philosophical/religious determination.
I'm not sure if you are implying that various laws were not redacted, with religious justification?

 

[katiemygirl]

I was not debating the topic just clarifying the Biblical application of law which came up in context of the op. Please pay attention.

No, you made a specific declaration. You said, "The wages of sin is death, not eternal punishment."

It is true that the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23 says such. But you took it upon yourself to add to the verse, "not eternal punisment." The verse says no such thing. Furthermore, the Bible teaches there will be eternal punishment for those who do not repent.

 

[leibowde84]

Technically, most of the laws are redacted, for Xians. Not much argument, even in the Jewish Judaism paradigm, hence the Noachide laws. That being said, the choice is ultimately up to you /?/ /your a Xian from your listed religion/, ; so, if one thinks that, really, none of the OT laws are relevant, that choice is going to bear the consequences, ie choose wisely. Some laws are outright redacted, or not applicable, like circumcision, and possibly a ''strict'', neccesitation regarding Shabbat or Sunday Sabbath; however, again, it's the persons choice, concerning Sabbath or Sunday Sabbath rules.
concise answer, technically, xians are pretty justified in making most of these decisions, via personal philosophical/religious determination.
I'm not sure if you are implying that various laws were not redacted, with religious justification?

I'm merely pointing out that following law is not adequate for defending the necessity of Jesus' death if laws can be modified.

 

[Desert Snake]

I'm merely pointing out that following law is not adequate for defending the necessity of Jesus' death if laws can be modified.

I understand this argument, however, I also recognize that it is not necessarily 'always', going to be a appropriate justification for ones actions. You also seem to be agreeing with what I wrote, basically.

 

[katiemygirl]

So, answer me this. Can laws be modified or not? Is it only certain laws? If so, which laws specifically?

Yes, God can do anything He chooses. And He did.

Do you understand why the law was given?This is important! It was to show man what sin really is.

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." (Romans3.20.)

The law was added to expose sin so that man would realize that he needs a Saviour. The law was a shadow of the good things to come. The law, with its yearly sacrifices could never make sinners perfect. It took the shedding of Jesus' blood to make that happen.

The Old Testament laws were there to be obeyed by the Israelites only, not by Gentiles. God chose Israel alone as His children and gave them His law.

This is most important for you to understand. The old law was for the Israelites ONLY. The new law is for ALL men.

A change was necessary.

Hope this helps.

 

[katiemygirl]

I'm merely pointing out that following law is not adequate for defending the necessity of Jesus' death if laws can be modified.

It seems you are calling God into question. To wonder why God couldn’t find “another way” to do something is to imply that the way He has chosen is not the best course of action and that some other method would be better.

Jesus' death was necessary because the old law, given to the Israelites alone, could not make sinners perfect. A new covenant (agreement) was necessary. Jesus was needed to make ALL men perfect.

“God made Him (Christ), who knew no sin, to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

The old covenant has been fulfilled in Christ.
Christ's teaching, His life, death and resurrection shows us the way to live the spirit of the OT in full without being tied to the "law" of the old covenant.

 

[leibowde84]

It seems you are calling God into question. To wonder why God couldn’t find “another way” to do something is to imply that the way He has chosen is not the best course of action and that some other method would be better.

No, I'm saying that this seems like an indication that Paul had it wrong. Maybe Paul didn't quite understand the reasoning for Jesus' death, why it was necessary, or what God's will, in this context, actually was.

 

[leibowde84]

“God made Him (Christ), who knew no sin, to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

The old covenant has been fulfilled in Christ.
Christ's teaching, His life, death and resurrection shows us the way to live the spirit of the OT in full without being tied to the "law" of the old covenant.

Then, why is belief in Christ necessary then? Shouldn't merely living according to the law and living a decent, charitable, loving life be enough?

 

[leibowde84]

Yes, God can do anything He chooses. And He did.

Do you understand why the law was given?This is important! It was to show man what sin really is.

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." (Romans3.20.)

The law was added to expose sin so that man would realize that he needs a Saviour. The law was a shadow of the good things to come. The law, with its yearly sacrifices could never make sinners perfect. It took the shedding of Jesus' blood to make that happen.

The Old Testament laws were there to be obeyed by the Israelites only, not by Gentiles. God chose Israel alone as His children and gave them His law.

This is most important for you to understand. The old law was for the Israelites ONLY. The new law is for ALL men.

A change was necessary.

Hope this helps.

I understand all this, but what does this have to do with Jesus' death being absolutely necessary? Btw, I'm not questioning God, I'm questioning Paul's validity.