I Am A Good Person, Therefore, I'm Going To Heaven!

[leibowde84]

Then you're using them incorrectly, unless you do not have trust or confidence, in your knowledge.

You aren't making sense. I will explain.

Knowledge has to do with understanding of a "fact or situation". A "fact" is "something that is indisputably the case". An example of knowledge of a situation would be, "I know Mike was at the meeting because I was, and I saw him there and spoke with him". I don't need trust or confidence, because it is factual that Mike was at the meeting. It is indisputably the case, therefore I "know" that Mike was at the meeting.

Belief, on the other hand, is based on trust and/or confidence that something is the case. Here's an example ... "I believe that Mike was at the meeting because he told me that he was, but I have not confirmed that as of yet". Although I have reason to believe Mike was at the meeting (maybe Mike is a trustworthy guy), I don't know for sure because I wasn't there and I didn't confirm it with anyone who was.

 

[Desert Snake]

You aren't making sense. I will explain.

Knowledge has to do with understanding of a "fact or situation". A "fact" is "something that is indisputably the case". An example of knowledge of a situation would be, "I know Mike was at the meeting because I was, and I saw him there and spoke with him". I don't need trust or confidence, because it is factual that Mike was at the meeting. It is indisputably the case, therefore I "know" that Mike was at the meeting.

Belief, on the other hand, is based on trust and/or confidence that something is the case. Here's an example ... "I believe that Mike was at the meeting because he told me that he was, but I have not confirmed that as of yet". Although I have reason to believe Mike was at the meeting (maybe Mike is a trustworthy guy), I don't know for sure because I wasn't there and I didn't confirm it with anyone who was.

'Belief', is not a designator as to how you arrived at your position. 'Belief', is a position, regardless of what 'knowledge' may or may not be involved in that belief. Therefore, you 'believe', that the earth exists, and /presumably/, consider it 'knowledge', or perhaps 'fact', whatever. We use the word 'belief', in situations where a position is the priority of import meant, as opposed to some other intention for using the word. Your 'example', is arbitrary; you still 'believe', that so and so was at the meeting, as well as considering it knowledge. Using your method of word 'definition', we take out the inherent usefulness , of using words like 'knowledge', to describe why one has reached a 'belief'/position// or in the religious context, an adherence, like in theism.
Example, if one states that they have 'knowledge', of something, without the reasoning provided to such, then it doesn't 'tell' you anything. We don't know how that person arrived at their 'knowledge'.

 

[leibowde84]

'Belief', is not a designator as to how you arrived at your position. 'Belief', is a position, regardless of what 'knowledge' may or may not be involved in that belief. Therefore, you 'believe', that the earth exists, and /presumably/, consider it 'knowledge', or perhaps 'fact', whatever. We use the word 'belief', in situations where a position is the priority of import meant, as opposed to some other intention for using the word. Your 'example', is arbitrary; you still 'believe', that so and so was at the meeting, as well as considering it knowledge. Using your method of word 'definition', we take out the inherent usefulness , of using words like 'knowledge', to describe why one has reached a 'belief'/position// or in the religious context, an adherence, like in theism.
Example, if one states that they have 'knowledge', of something, without the reasoning provided to such, then it doesn't 'tell' you anything. We don't know how that person arrived at their 'knowledge'.

I got my definitions from the dictionary. Can you support this claim?

The term knowledge does not have any connection to religious beliefs. And it certainly is not meant to explain how a certain fact came to be known. If someone says that they "know" something, they are more than welcome to explain how they came to that knowledge. The term "belief" is the same way. It in no way signifies importance. I can say, "I believe in intelligent alien life". That doesn't mean it is important to me in any way. Maybe it is just because of a mathematical probability or something along those lines.

Why would it have anything to do with importance? Faith, I would agree with. It is strongly held beliefs. But, "belief" itself does not have any connotation of importance.

 

[Desert Snake]

I got my definitions from the dictionary. Can you support this claim?

Those definitions support everything I have stated.

The term knowledge does not have any connection to religious beliefs. And it certainly is not meant to explain how a certain fact came to be known. If someone says that they "know" something, they are more than welcome to explain how they came to that knowledge. The term "belief" is the same way. It in no way signifies importance. I can say, "I believe in intelligent alien life". That doesn't mean it is important to me in any way. Maybe it is just because of a mathematical probability or something along those lines.

Why would it have anything to do with importance? Faith, I would agree with. It is strongly held beliefs. But, "belief" itself does not have any connotation of importance.

No idea what you are going on about, at this point. The 'position'/adherence, is the import when we use the word belief. As opposed to how we arrived at that belief.

We encounter the term 'Jesus believer'. This signifies that the adherence to Jesus, is the important aspect of the term.

 

[leibowde84]

Those definitions support everything I have stated.


No idea what you are going on about, at this point. The 'position'/adherence, is the import when we use the word belief. As opposed to how we arrived at that belief.

We encounter the term 'Jesus believer'. This signifies that the adherence to Jesus, is the important aspect of the term.

"Jesus believer" is merely, at the very least, someone who believes in Jesus. This could mean that they believe Jesus existed as a historical figure. It could also mean that they believe that Jesus was a prophet of God (like in Islam). And, it could mean that they believe Jesus to be divine and the "son of God" and/or God in human form. It doesn't mean any of these specifically, which is why more clarification is necessary.

 

[Desert Snake]

"Jesus believer" is merely, at the very least, someone who believes in Jesus. This could mean that they believe Jesus existed as a historical figure. It could also mean that they believe that Jesus was a prophet of God (like in Islam). And, it could mean that they believe Jesus to be divine and the "son of God" and/or God in human form. It doesn't mean any of these specifically, which is why more clarification is necessary.

Therefore?

That being said, in a religious context, it usually does indicate a religious stance

 

[leibowde84]

Therefore?

That being said, in a religious context, it usually does indicate a religious stance

Sure, but it doesn't mean that the word "believe" necessarily implies something of importance. And, we are discussing "belief" vs. "knowledge" and how they are different.

 

[Desert Snake]

Sure, but it doesn't mean that the word "believe" necessarily implies something of importance. And, we are discussing "belief" vs. "knowledge" and how they are different.

Eh, the 'importance' part isn't necessary for a belief. It may, or may not be. We use inference for that, if we don't have further context.
The import of the word, is to state the position on the subject. That's all. Doesn't tell you if it's derived from 'knowledge', or not. What 'belief' doesn't indicate, is that knowledge was not used to arrive at the belief. That is why, the words can be used, interchangeably.


ie ,the words in and of themselves, do not indicate a ''difference''.

 

[leibowde84]

Eh, the 'importance' part isn't necessary for a belief. It may, or may not be. We use inference for that, if we don't have further context.
The import of the word, is to state the position on the subject. That's all. Doesn't tell you if it's derived from 'knowledge', or not. What 'belief' doesn't indicate, is that knowledge was not used to arrive at the belief. That is why, the words can be used, interchangeably.
/_____/believes he has knowledge, that the earth exists.
/____/ also 'believes', that earth exists.
He doesn't 'not believe', that the earth exists.

/'belief', isn't "different", from knowledge./doesn't indicate that, inherently,, It is used when you are stating a position on something, regardless of how you arrived at that conclusion.


ie ,the words in and of themselves, do not indicate a ''difference''.

My point is that it doesn't work the other way. One can say that they both believe and know that the earth exists, because the earth existing (I would argue) is indisputably the truth (a fact). But what if someone said that they believed intelligent alien life existed based on probability? Could they also say that they know that intelligent alien life exists based on probability? No, because probability alone doesn't make it a fact.

 

[Thief]

Sure, but it doesn't mean that the word "believe" necessarily implies something of importance. And, we are discussing "belief" vs. "knowledge" and how they are different.

no...we are discussing.....

whether or not, good people don't make it to heaven

and it is written.....
that you are neither hot nor cold I will spit you out

I strongly suspect.....standing before God and heaven...
a plea.....I didn't know....
won't do well

 

[leibowde84]

no...we are discussing.....

whether or not, good people don't make it to heaven

and it is written.....
that you are neither hot nor cold I will spit you out

I strongly suspect.....standing before God and heaven...
a plea.....I didn't know....
won't do well

One would certainly know then, when standing before God.

 

[Desert Snake]

My point is that it doesn't work the other way. One can say that they both believe and know that the earth exists, because the earth existing (I would argue) is indisputably the truth (a fact). But what if someone said that they believed intelligent alien life existed based on probability? Could they also say that they know that intelligent alien life exists based on probability? No, because probability alone doesn't make it a fact.

This is arbitrary anyway, since there are different standards by how something is determined to be a 'truth'.
Not sure what relevance this has to anything

 

[Thief]

One would certainly know then, when standing before God.

so you're going to wait......and then plead ignorance....

you didn't know ....for sure....not certain....
couldn't make up your mind.....

 

[McBell]

so you're going to wait......and then plead ignorance....

you didn't know ....for sure....not certain....
couldn't make up your mind.....

Since I doubt it will be an issue at all....

 

[Thief]

Since I doubt it will be an issue at all....

which is it?
that there is a God?
or your stain of doubt as you stand before Him?

 

[McBell]

which is it?
that there is a God?
or your stain of doubt as you stand before Him?

I doubt that there will be any need to plead ignorance as I doubt there will be the grand judgment ceremony you propose will occur.

So you can stop with the weak veiled threats.
Your deity, even if it does exist, does not impress me any.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

If good humans goes to heaven for the sake of goodness than Abu Talib will go to heaven.


Goodness without Faith is like a fine wood thrown in fire

 

[McBell]

Goodness without Faith is like a fine wood thrown in fire

I completely disagree.
If the only reason you are good is because you fear punish and or hope for reward, then you are not a good person.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

I completely disagree.
If the only reason you are good is because you fear punish and or hope for reward, then you are not a good person.

Its because of Fear and Love that leads to more goodness

 

[McBell]

Its because of Fear and Love that leads to more goodness

your idea of goodness must be extremely different from mine.