I Am A Good Person, Therefore, I'm Going To Heaven!

[muhammad_isa]

I
...
But if the same parent tells the same child unless he or she behaves the child will spend eternity being tormented in furnace of Hell, that is acceptable. The rational being used is to coerce the child to change its ways. It is better to suffer in this life which is temporal rather than spend eternity in the furnace of Hell.
...

Sounds reasonable to me .. the parent is educating their child with their faith..
However, telling just one part of the story (ie. the stick but not the carrot) is incomplete..

It's not the parent that is 'threatening the child', nor actually is it Almighty God .. it's a consequence of our deeds.
Now .. if Almighty God didn't tell us that there was a consequence, or we changed our faith by leaving half of it out, that WOULD be blameworthy!

 

[leibowde84]

Sounds reasonable to me .. the parent is educating their child with their faith..
However, telling just one part of the story (ie. the stick but not the carrot) is incomplete..

It's not the parent that is 'threatening the child', nor actually is it Almighty God .. it's a consequence of our deeds.
Now .. if Almighty God didn't tell us that there was a consequence, or we changed our faith by leaving half of it out, that WOULD be blameworthy!

Could have been God, could have just been other ancient men making it all up. We just don't know.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Wait, what's wrong with direct access to God?

Nothing wrong with direct access to God, didn't Adam have direct access ? _______
Because sin is like a veil separating us is why we need Jesus as Mediator for us - 1 Timothy 2:5
But wait, Jesus as Mediator is a temporary arrangement, because at the end of Jesus' 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth, then mankind will be free from sin and death, so the way will be open for righteous mankind to once again have direct access to God - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26

 

[muhammad_isa]

Could have been God, could have just been other ancient men making it all up. We just don't know.

You mean, you don't know
You could claim that I don't know either, as I have no physical evidence to prove it, but I can assure you that if I had no reasonable evidence to believe it to be true, I would not have any faith that it WAS true!

Of course, this "reasonable evidence" is something between me and God .. so you'll have to find your own, I'm afraid
I doubt it's possible to find evidence without attempting to make a connection .. it's not just a clinical/scientific thing, although there is evidence of all types in existence .. if they all fit together to make a large jigsaw, then one can conclude that it's unlikely that we have reached the wrong conclusion

 

[leibowde84]

You mean, you don't know
You could claim that I don't know either, as I have no physical evidence to prove it, but I can assure you that if I had no reasonable evidence to believe it to be true, I would not have any faith that it WAS true!

Of course, this "reasonable evidence" is something between me and God .. so you'll have to find your own, I'm afraid
I doubt it's possible to find evidence without attempting to make a connection .. it's not just a clinical/scientific thing, although there is evidence of all types in existence .. if they all fit together to make a large jigsaw, then one can conclude that it's unlikely that we have reached the wrong conclusion

Do you believe or do you know?

 

[savagewind]

Do you believe or do you know?

I know there is something speaking in the wind. Sometimes I imagine I can hear it, but sometimes it is without language and is just knowing. If it is not from one source, I believe it is united with whatever else might be with it. I trust that it is benevolent, knowledgeable, wise and fair. It can't be myself because I am not that intelligent. I am sure. I call it the voice from Heaven, which I believe is ruled by God.

So, I know there is something, but I don't know what it is. I believe it is good. Might it turn around to bite me? I don't know. In the spirit of my antagonists, I shall say, "we shall see":*.

I don't believe in knowing anything after I am dead. It seems to me that the wisdom without a voice has no physical body, which makes me believe and trust that it is possible to exist without a body. In bliss or in pain? HOW? Bliss and pain are generated by a body, in my opinion.

*Fyi, I don't believe in "we" , and I don't care to ever be sure.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you believe or do you know?

I know .. just like I know that pure clean air and water are more important than the quantity of food that you eat

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If "Jesus takes the wheel", why do I have to be awake? I'm not driving ...
I guess it's supposed to insult people who "aren't prepared" for Jesus' coming. However, I've long had a problem with this story:
God: YOU DON'T HAVE FORMAL ATTIRE EVEN THOUGH I INVITED A HOMELESS PERSON! BURN!
Me: Yo, bro, you ain't got a tux? S'cool, man ... I got some stuff in the back you can borrow. Welcome to the party...

First of all, 2 Corinthians 5:7 says to ' walk ' by faith so we don't have to drive !

Second, you might want to read the admonition given at James 2:2-4 because we are told Not to make a distinction between someone rich (gold ring) and someone in poor clothing.
The poor of this world could very well be rich in faith - James 2:5-6

 

[leibowde84]

I know .. just like I know that pure clean air and water are more important than the quantity of food that you eat

So, you have empirical evidence to support this knowledge?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So, you have empirical evidence to support this knowledge?

How do I know that the purity of the air that I breathe and the water that I drink is more important than the quantity of food that I eat?
Through experience .. that's how!
Now .. your experiences might be different to mine, and therefore your knowledge and conclusions also different.

I've already said .. you'll have to find your own "proof" .. I can't upload my mind into yours

 

[leibowde84]

How do I know that the purity of the air that I breathe and the water that I drink is more important than the quantity of food that I eat?
Through experience .. that's how!
Now .. your experiences might be different to mine, and therefore your knowledge and conclusions also different.

I've already said .. you'll have to find your own "proof" .. I can't upload my mind into yours

You are describing your reasoning for belief, not knowledge.

 

[Thief]

You are describing your reasoning for belief, not knowledge.

and you are certain of that?
how do you know?.....what he knows?
can you not know something with certainty?
how do you know?
what is the difference between faith and knowledge and belief?
please define each item in great detail

so I can ask you more questions

 

[muhammad_isa]

You are describing your reasoning for belief, not knowledge.

Your definition of knowledge is too strict.
People go to university to gain knowledge. There is a lot of subjects, and a lot of sources.

Almighty God enlightens whomsoever He wills, and the converse. The mind is a complex thing, and no amount of evidence of whatever type can convince everybody that Almighty God exists.

In scientific trials, we often make conclusions through logic and statistics .. some people call these conclusions knowledge, and "unquestionable facts". I don't always take everything at face value, as I'm sure you don't either.
What I know to be true might not be true, and the same goes for everybody else..
Praise God, I have a fair amount of conviction in my judgement .. is my belief based on knowledge or is it based on brainwashing? I'm satisfied that my faith makes COMPLETE sense, and continues to evolve as I approach death. If I didn't know that God existed, and it was only "a belief" ie. my chosen dogma, then I wouldn't take it so seriously as I do.

You see knowledge as unquestionable facts that can be emperically proved .. a gross simplification as far as I'm concerned

 

[leibowde84]

and you are certain of that?
how do you know?.....what he knows?
can you not know something with certainty?
how do you know?
what is the difference between faith and knowledge and belief?
please define each item in great detail

so I can ask you more questions

Knowledge is trusting that something is true based on confirming verifiable evidence (objectively based). Faith/belief is trust in something that cannot be confirmed with verifiable evidence (subjectively based).

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Knowledge is trusting that something is true based on confirming verifiable evidence (objectively based).
Faith/belief is trust in something that cannot be confirmed with verifiable evidence (subjectively based).

'Credulity' ( blind faith ) is trust in something that cannot be confirmed with verifiable evidence ( subjectively based )
Jesus based his faith by his logical reasoning on his knowledge (education) of the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " it is written....... " meaning already recorded in the old Hebrew Scriptures explaining them for us.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I doubt it's possible to find evidence without attempting to make a connection .. it's not just a clinical/scientific thing, although there is evidence of all types in existence .. if they all fit together to make a large jigsaw, then one can conclude that it's unlikely that we have reached the wrong conclusion

Very interesting illustration ^ above ^ regarding a large jigsaw puzzle.
Since the Bible is Not written ABC as a dictionary is, then we need to search or research the Bible by topic or subject arrangement - Acts of the Apostles 17:11
The Bible has the outward framework of the ' puzzle ' as being God's Kingdom - Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:13-14
That kingdom government was the central theme of Jesus' preaching and teachings -> Luke 4:43; Matthew 24:14
So, by comparing cross-reference or parallel verses and passages among the many Bible writers then the jugsaw puzzle picture becomes complete:
Mankind on Earth will see the fulfillment of God's promise to father Abraham as mentioned at Genesis 12:3 and Genesis 22:18 regarding ALL nations as then being blessed.
So, from the sad loss of the edenic ' tree of life ' in Genesis, to the coming happy return of the edenic ' tree of life ' on Earth for the healing of earth's nations - Revelation 22:2

 

[muhammad_isa]

Knowledge is trusting that something is true based on confirming verifiable evidence (objectively based). Faith/belief is trust in something that cannot be confirmed with verifiable evidence (subjectively based).

Again .. your definition is too strict. It's a scientific approach..
Are you telling me that all the knowledge that is taught in a university falls under your definition? I don't think that it does!

Additionally, faith can be strong or it can be weak .. in fact, a believer experiences rise and fall. This is not necessarily to do with evidence .. it's primarily to do with our deeds

 

[savagewind]

So, by comparing cross-reference or parallel verses and passages among the many Bible writers then the jugsaw puzzle picture becomes complete:

Or ask Jehovah for the wisdom to see and understand. James 1:5

 

[leibowde84]

'Credulity' ( blind faith ) is trust in something that cannot be confirmed with verifiable evidence ( subjectively based )
Jesus based his faith by his logical reasoning on his knowledge (education) of the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " it is written....... " meaning already recorded in the old Hebrew Scriptures explaining them for us.

Claims in scripture aren't verifiable evidence for anything. They are merely more unsubstantiated claims, as there is no way to verify their accuracy.

 

[leibowde84]

Are you telling me that all the knowledge that is taught in a university falls under your definition? I don't think that it does!

Many things taught in schools are known to be true or accurate based on verifiable evidence. Many things are merely believed to be accurate. It is certainly not one or the other. It is a mixture of both, so you would have to provide specifics as to what you are referring to.

Additionally, faith can be strong or it can be weak .. in fact, a believer experiences rise and fall. This is not necessarily to do with evidence .. it's primarily to do with our deeds

This is another example of a belief. The "rise and fall" part, I mean.