I am sceptical of the Skeptics. Is it wrong?

[leibowde84]

you have to know Saint Peter the disciple of Jesus witnessed that jesus was not crucified. The same with Barnabas (his disciple also), he neither believed Jesus was crucified.

Nope, this is just speculation that is not noted anywhere in the Bible. Remember, we are discussing what the BIBLE claims, not what other scriptures claim. What other scriptures claim about Jesus is not relevant to a discussion about what the Bible claims. I'm not saying that the Bible is accurate, I am merely pointing out what it claims.

BTW Jesus nowhere and had never proclaimed his divinity either.

Wrong again, and please refrain from straw man arguments. I am not arguing fact here, I am merely arguing for what is claimed in the Bible. Jesus claiming to be God himself is irrelevant, as all we are discussing is claims made in scripture that claim his divinity. Here are various examples:

• John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
  1. John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

• John 5:18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

• John 8:24, "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."
  1. Note: In the Greek, "He" is not there.

• John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"
  1. Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

• John 10:30-33, "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

• John 20:28, "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

• Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

• Phil. 2:5-11, "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

• Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."
  1. Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."

 

[use_your_brain]

Again, not merely believing in Christ's teachings, but belief in his death, resurrection, and divinity (son of God). Correct me if I'm wrong, but Islam does not adhere to this belief, so Muslims would not be included, and Islam would not be enough.

The praying styles of the early Christians is not relevant to this at all, as it has no bearing on whether Muslims believe in the resurrection and divinity of Jesus. Even Muhammad is thought of as a prophet, not divine, right? Isn't that why he forbid his image from being displayed? He didn't want to be worshiped like a God. But, you obviously know more about that aspect of Islam than me.

You have to know Saint Peter (the disciple of Jesus) witnessed that jesus was not crucified. The same with barnabas, his disciple also, he explained that Jesus was not crucified.
Jesus nowhere ever proclaimed his divinity.
How did the way Jesus pray to his God? the answer is: he bowed, he prostated and so on the same way muslims do. he didnt danced in the alleged church or played an organ or guitar. he also released his shoes in the alleged church.

 

[leibowde84]

You have to know Saint Peter (the disciple of Jesus) witnessed that jesus was not crucified. The same with barnabas, his disciple also, he explained that Jesus was not crucified.

Again, please quit the straw man arguments. We are talking about THE BIBLE and what is claimed in THE BIBLE. Nowhere in the Bible is there a single indication of anyone doubting that Jesus was crucified. Please stay on topic. We are only discussing what is claimed in the Bible.

Jesus nowhere ever proclaimed his divinity.

Again, not at issue. The Bible makes various claims about Jesus' divinity and the requirement to believe in Jesus as Divine. I am not making any claims here about what Jesus may or may not have said himself, as no one knows that. I am only pointing out what is claimed in the Bible.

How did the way Jesus pray to his God? the answer is: he bowed, he prostated and so on the same way muslims do. he didnt danced in the alleged church or played an organ or guitar. he also released his shoes in the alleged church.

I don't know how you can honestly think this has anything to do with claims made in the Bible about Jesus' divinity, his resurrection, and the requirement for belief in these things. Please quit it with the straw man arguments. It is not relevant to this conversation how Jesus prayed.

 

[use_your_brain]

Nope, this is just speculation that is not noted anywhere in the Bible. Remember, we are discussing what the BIBLE claims, not what other scriptures claim. What other scriptures claim about Jesus is not relevant to a discussion about what the Bible claims. I'm not saying that the Bible is accurate, I am merely pointing out what it claims.
Wrong again, and please refrain from straw man arguments. I am not arguing fact here, I am merely arguing for what is claimed in the Bible. Jesus claiming to be God himself is irrelevant, as all we are discussing is claims made in scripture that claim his divinity. Here are various examples:

• John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
  1. John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

• John 5:18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

• John 8:24, "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."
  1. Note: In the Greek, "He" is not there.

• John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"
  1. Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

• John 10:30-33, "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

• John 20:28, "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

• Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

• Phil. 2:5-11, "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

• Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."
  1. Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."

you constantly say the follower of jesus believe his death and resurrection.
I reply: His disciples witnessed that jesus was not died (by crucifixion) therefore they contradicted with the death and resurrection belief.
I don't find any passage where Jesus claimed his divinity, it is all about conclusion instead.
How could this very core of Christians teaching be vague like that?
Did the people in Jesus era realized that the alleged God hung out around them? How did their reaction by knowing the creator of this universe ate, drank, poop amid them? very nonsense.
and what a weak God he is then.
you remind me to the Hindu that treat their cows as gods. and the elephants.
However the different case, Christians worship or at least treat jesus as God along time after his death. the people around Jesus didnt prostrated before jesus. they treated jesus like a human being, like a leader, a doctor, a prophet, not like a deity at all.

 

[leibowde84]

His disciples witnessed that jesus was not died (by crucifixion) therefore they contradicted with the death and resurrection belief.

Again, this is not claimed in the Bible, and, as such, is not relevant to this conversation. According to the Bible, none of his followers made the claim that Jesus was not crucified.

I don't find any passage where Jesus claimed his divinity, it is all about conclusion instead.

Again, not relevant. The Bible claims Jesus' divinity.

How could this very core of Christians teaching be vague like that?
Did the people in Jesus era realized that the alleged God hung out around them? How did their reaction by knowing the creator of this universe ate, drank, poop amid them? very nonsense.
and what a weak God he is then.
you remind me to the Hindu that treat their cows as gods. and the elephants.
However the different case, Christians worship or at least treat jesus as God along time after his death. the people around Jesus didnt prostrated before jesus. they treated jesus like a human being, like a leader, a doctor, a prophet, not like a deity at all.

I feel you on this, but it is not relevant here. We are talking about what the Bible claims, not its validity.

 

[use_your_brain]

Again, please quit the straw man arguments. We are talking about THE BIBLE and what is claimed in THE BIBLE. Nowhere in the Bible is there a single indication of anyone doubting that Jesus was crucified. Please stay on topic. We are only discussing what is claimed in the Bible.

Again, not at issue. The Bible makes various claims about Jesus' divinity and the requirement to believe in Jesus as Divine. I am not making any claims here about what Jesus may or may not have said himself, as no one knows that. I am only pointing out what is claimed in the Bible.
I don't know how you can honestly think this has anything to do with claims made in the Bible about Jesus' divinity, his resurrection, and the requirement for belief in these things. Please quit it with the straw man arguments. It is not relevant to this conversation how Jesus prayed.

- then stop selling the DEATH AND RESURRECTION of jesus to me. since the disciples rejected it.
- again there is nowhere the bible affirms that THE CHRISTIANITY is a true religion like we tried to observe previously.
- it is amazing, so the divinity of jesus is not from Jesus mouth itself? it is all about claims by people later on?
- again if you don't want those things are discussed right here then don't raise them up to the surface.

 

[leibowde84]

- then stop selling the DEATH AND RESURRECTION of jesus to me. since the disciples rejected it.

According to the Bible, none of the disciples rejected the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus. And, in actuality, there is absolutely no verifiable evidence that any of his disciples rejected these things at any time. That claim is based on speculation and 3rd hand accounts, and is not relevant to what the Bible claims.

- again there is nowhere the bible affirms that THE CHRISTIANITY is a true religion like we tried to observe previously.

It is confirmed throughout, and I have provided multiple passages confirming this.

- it is amazing, so the divinity of jesus is not from Jesus mouth itself? it is all about claims by people later on?

Yep.

- again if you don't want those things are discussed right here then don't raise them up to the surface.

I didn't bring them up. I have repeatedly said that I am only making claims about what the Bible says, not what actually happened.

 

[leibowde84]

- then stop selling the DEATH AND RESURRECTION of jesus to me. since the disciples rejected it.

Just out of curiosity, can you provide the source you are getting this information from. I'm not doubting it is claimed somewhere. I'd just like to see where you are getting your information from and why you are so confident in it.

 

[use_your_brain]

According to the Bible, none of the disciples rejected the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus. And, in actuality, there is absolutely no verifiable evidence that any of his disciples rejected these things at any time. That claim is based on speculation and 3rd hand accounts, and is not relevant to what the Bible claims.

It is confirmed throughout, and I have provided multiple passages confirming this.

Yep.

I didn't bring them up. I have repeatedly said that I am only making claims about what the Bible says, not what actually happened.

and according to the Christian scripture also, Jesus was not crucified.
yes, the Bible nowhere claim that CHRISTIANITY IS A TRUE RELIGION, right?

 

[leibowde84]

and according to the Christian scripture also, Jesus was not crucified.

You can't be serious with this, can you? The Bible 100% NEVER makes the claim that Jesus was not crucified. According to the Bible (Christian Scripture) Jesus was CERTAINLY CRUCIFIED. Where are you getting this nonsense from?

 

[leibowde84]

yes, the Bible nowhere claim that CHRISTIANITY IS A TRUE RELIGION, right?

No, the Bible certainly and repeatedly paints Christianity (belief in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection being a requirement) as being true and as being the only pathway to salvation. In other words, the true religion (as you put it).

 

[use_your_brain]

Just out of curiosity, can you provide the source you are getting this information from. I'm not doubting it is claimed somewhere. I'd just like to see where you are getting your information from and why you are so confident in it.

At least there were two Disciples who reject the crucifiction, they were:
- Peter (saint peter).
- Barnabas.
However the welcomed and accepted religious text by Christian community is the text from Peter welknown as: The Apocalypse of Peter (the revelation of Peter).
In that text Peter witnessed that someone substituted the Jesus from crucifixion:
Jesus said on the tree: "The man you (peter) see laughing is the true Jesus, while the nailed one is another person. they (the romans) cannot hurt me. " (or something like that the precise passages is available in the revelation).

Let alone from Barnabas book. But I know almost all Christians deny this book, since it is very "Islamic sense".

 

[leibowde84]

and according to the Christian scripture also, Jesus was not crucified.

I'm sorry, but if you are going to make outlandish/false claims like this, can you at least point to the passage you are referring to. I've never heard anyone make the claim that the Bible says that Jesus wasn't crucified. Obviously there are other texts that make this claim, but the Bible?!

 

[leibowde84]

At lwast there were two Disciples who reject the crucifiction, they were:
- Peter (saint peter).
- Barnabas.
However the welcomed and accepted religious text by Christian community is the text from Peter welknown as: The Apocalypse of Peter (the revelation of Peter).
In that text Peter witnessed that someone substituted the Jesus from crucifixion:
Jesus said on the tree: "The man you (peter) see laughing is the true Jesus, while the nailed one is another person. they (the romans) cannot hurt me. " (or something like that the precise passages is available in the revelation).

Let alone fro Barnabas book. But I know almost all Christians deny this book, since it is very "Islamic sense".

Oh, I see where your confusion is. The Revelation of Peter is not an accepted Christian Scripture. It was an early text that the Church regarded as heresy. It was NOT INCLUDED IN THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES (THE BIBLE), and the early Church forbid leaders from using/reading it in Church. Thus, it is pretty ridiculous to give it any historical accuracy on its own. And, nevertheless, it was not accepted as "scripture" even as early as the 2nd century.

"The Apocalypse of Peter (or Revelation of Peter) is an early Christian text of the 2nd century and an example of apocalyptic literaturewith Hellenistic overtones. It is not in the Bible, but is mentioned in the Muratorian fragment, the oldest surviving list of New Testament books, which also states it was not allowed to be read in church by others."

 

[leibowde84]

Let alone fro Barnabas book. But I know almost all Christians deny this book, since it is very "Islamic sense".

This is the same way that they view the

At least there were two Disciples who reject the crucifiction, they were:
- Peter (saint peter).
- Barnabas.
However the welcomed and accepted religious text by Christian community is the text from Peter welknown as: The Apocalypse of Peter (the revelation of Peter).
In that text Peter witnessed that someone substituted the Jesus from crucifixion:
Jesus said on the tree: "The man you (peter) see laughing is the true Jesus, while the nailed one is another person. they (the romans) cannot hurt me. " (or something like that the precise passages is available in the revelation).

Let alone from Barnabas book. But I know almost all Christians deny this book, since it is very "Islamic sense".

There was a plethora of "gospels" that came out before Christian Scripture was agreed upon. For example, the 4 Gospels were chosen from upwards of 30 possible books floating around the early churches. Both of the books you mention were not included in Christian Scripture.

 

[use_your_brain]

No, the Bible certainly and repeatedly paints Christianity (belief in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection being a requirement) as being true and as being the only pathway to salvation. In other words, the true religion (as you put it).

LOL, as I said that verse doesnt mention CHRISTIANITY at all. Moreover, it doesnt either mention religion whatsoever.
"Through Jesus" what does it mean to begin with again?
you say: by believing in Jesus bla bla bla..
I said: muslims also believe in Jesus, mormon also, JW also, Catolic also...
You said : Christians are the follower of jesus.
what does suppose from jesus we follow?
his teaching?
I said muslims pray like jesus did.
and so on.
so muslims are the follower of Jesus (Christ-ians). it is the conclusion.

but you said: we have to also believe in divinity of jesus.
i said: nowhere in the bibel where jesus claimed his divinity all about the conclusion.
::: in the beginning there is the word, the word became flesh bla bla bla... lol
why it is very complicated? why didnt simply jesus said: I am a God, a little God, a weak God. like that.

 

[use_your_brain]

Oh, I see where your confusion is. The Revelation of Peter is not an accepted Christian Scripture. It was an early text that the Church regarded as heresy. It was NOT INCLUDED IN THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES (THE BIBLE), and the early Church forbid leaders from using/reading it in Church. Thus, it is pretty ridiculous to give it any historical accuracy on its own. And, nevertheless, it was not accepted as "scripture" even as early as the 2nd century.

"The Apocalypse of Peter (or Revelation of Peter) is an early Christian text of the 2nd century and an example of apocalyptic literaturewith Hellenistic overtones. It is not in the Bible, but is mentioned in the Muratorian fragment, the oldest surviving list of New Testament books, which also states it was not allowed to be read in church by others."

wrong.
The traditional Roman Catolic accept it, they accept the Revelation of Peter. In their official web site they say: The Revelation of Peter is the Divine text, it is believable and accepted . (1994).

who have the authority to decide it is a hersy text? what is their parameter?

 

[leibowde84]

wrong.
The traditional Roman Catolic accept it, they accept the Revelation of Peter. In their official web site they say: The Revelation of Peter is the Divine text, it is believable and accepted . (1994).

who have the authority to decide it is a hersy text? what is their parameter?

Please provide a link.

 

[use_your_brain]

This is the same way that they view the

There was a plethora of "gospels" that came out before Christian Scripture was agreed upon. For example, the 4 Gospels were chosen from upwards of 30 possible books floating around the early churches. Both of the books you mention were not included in Christian Scripture.

who chosen those 4 gospels to be the official scripture for Christians? why did they reject the other texts? who were they?

 

[leibowde84]

who chosen those 4 gospels to be the official scripture for Christians? why did they reject the other texts? who were they?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Christian_biblical_canon