I believe Satan has brain washed most Christians/people.

[InChrist]

How would not a single person have a life?
And how could they not live for eternity in Heaven when it is sin that prevents people from getting that?
If a parent wants their child to succeed, they don't throw a bunch of distractions in the child's way and tell them best of luck.

I think most parent who want heir child to succeed allow their child to lean life lessons and understand consequences rather than control their every move and keep them in a bubble. God allows humans to see the consequences of their sin during this lifetime on earth along with offering the opportunity to be changed and saved from sin and have the promise of an eternal home free of sin. This present life is the time to decide whether one wants sin or wants freedom from sin. The wages of sin is death and we all sin. God knows even ahead of time we will all sin, so had He not in His mercy allowed this lifetime for each of us to make the choice to remain in sin or be saved from sin no one would have even had a life. Yet, He has given life and the choice to everyone and desires that none should perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[skl]

Leviticus 20:9
For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

Deuteronomy 21:18
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Tell me where the line is drawn. If this script was law the population in my part of town would be drastically reduced and we would run out of stones.

 

[viole]

I believe in a Creator who interacts with humanity with eternity in mind.

Well, He is not interactng so well, given the various and mutually contradicting version of God we observe and have observed throughout history.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Shadow Wolf]

God knows even ahead of time we will all sin, so had He not in His mercy allowed this lifetime for each of us to make the choice to remain in sin or be saved from sin no one would have even had a life. Yet, He has given life and the choice to everyone and desires that none should perish, but have everlasting life.

So, in essence, god is tossing a steak to a dog even though he knows the dog will eat the steak, and he did this even though he doesn't want the stake to be eaten. And although god will punish the dog for eating the stake that he knows will be eaten, he doesn't want the dog to be punished for doing something that god didn't want to happen, but he is still going to punish the dog anyways for doing what god knew would happen and that god made possible to happen anyways by tossing the steak in front of the dog, knowing full well it would be eaten.
But when the dog eats the steak, if it ask for forgiveness over doing what god set up and allowed for in the first place, all is forgiven.
It sounds to me like god should take some of the blame himself. After all, if he knows it is going to happen, he knows our design is flawed, and he let us go on anyways.
If a car company knowingly releases a model of car they know has a design flaw, do you blame the drivers who are in incidents that happened because of the flawed design, or do you blame the car company for releasing the product?

Leviticus 20:9
For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

I'd be put to death just because my parents were lousy parents. My mom mocked me as my body was changing during puberty, she yelled at me once and told me she could replace me, and she kept threatening to send me away to a "troubled" kids home. My dad was hardly ever around and he left one night. Parents should not be honored just for being parents, and many parents do in fact deserve the scorn of their child.

 

[InChrist]

So, in essence, god is tossing a steak to a dog even though he knows the dog will eat the steak, and he did this even though he doesn't want the stake to be eaten. And although god will punish the dog for eating the stake that he knows will be eaten, he doesn't want the dog to be punished for doing something that god didn't want to happen, but he is still going to punish the dog anyways for doing what god knew would happen and that god made possible to happen anyways by tossing the steak in front of the dog, knowing full well it would be eaten.
But when the dog eats the steak, if it ask for forgiveness over doing what god set up and allowed for in the first place, all is forgiven.
It sounds to me like god should take some of the blame himself. After all, if he knows it is going to happen, he knows our design is flawed, and he let us go on anyways.
If a car company knowingly releases a model of car they know has a design flaw, do you blame the drivers who are in incidents that happened because of the flawed design, or do you blame the car company for releasing the product?

Humans being are not dogs or cars. I believe that since the scriptures say we are made in the image of God there is a huge difference and that includes the possibility to choose. From my perspective it is obvious that if there were any other way God could have designed humans without violating this attribute of freewill which He must consider very important and necessary He would have done so. This freedom to choose does come with the risk of bad choices, but God has provided a way of true change and freedom for sin forever (by personal choice) for any who desire. I think it is an incredible offer based on real love.



[QUOTE I]'d be put to death just because my parents were lousy parents. My mom mocked me as my body was changing during puberty, she yelled at me once and told me she could replace me, and she kept threatening to send me away to a "troubled" kids home. My dad was hardly ever around and he left one night. Parents should not be honored just for being parents, and many parents do in fact deserve the scorn of their child.[/QUOTE]

Your parents don't sound very nice or loving and may not deserve any honor, but to be filled with hatred toward them only harms you. I think forgiveness, even when others don't deserve it brings freedom from the past and for the future. One thing I have experienced in my own life is that such freeing forgiveness is very difficult or even sometimes impossible without the power of God's grace.

 

[InChrist]

Well, He is not interactng so well, given the various and mutually contradicting version of God we observe and have observed throughout history.

Ciao

- viole

I don't see it that way.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Humans being are not dogs or cars.

That is what is known a metaphor. It puts compares things in a similar way; in this case, god knows humans are going to sin anyways but he tosses the steak to the dog anyways knowing it will be eaten, and showing that we blame the maker, not the product, when the maker nows their product is flawed.

I think forgiveness, even when others don't deserve it brings freedom from the past and for the future.

If they don't deserve it, they don't deserve it.
But it's all in the past. It has had a tremendous influence on who I am today, but I have long since gotten over the anger of it. However, if anything is said, it isn't forgiveness from me, but some sort of indication from my parents that for once in their lives they are actually capable of supporting a decision of mine. I don't even expect an apology from my mom for making it so the few friends I did have never wanted to hang out if she was around, or from my dad for the few things he taught me being ways to cut-corners and half-*** everything. Them trying to talk me out of moving away from here would be a good start.

 

[InChrist]

That is what is known a metaphor. It puts compares things in a similar way; in this case, god knows humans are going to sin anyways but he tosses the steak to the dog anyways knowing it will be eaten, and showing that we blame the maker, not the product, when the maker nows their product is flawed.

If they don't deserve it, they don't deserve it.
But it's all in the past. It has had a tremendous influence on who I am today, but I have long since gotten over the anger of it. However, if anything is said, it isn't forgiveness from me, but some sort of indication from my parents that for once in their lives they are actually capable of supporting a decision of mine. I don't even expect an apology from my mom for making it so the few friends I did have never wanted to hang out if she was around, or from my dad for the few things he taught me being ways to cut-corners and half-*** everything. Them trying to talk me out of moving away from here would be a good start.

I think there is quite a difference between tossing a steak and offering a choice. According to the scriptures, God gave the first humans (that the text says were created good, BTW, not flawed) and blessed them with a beautiful, abundant garden full of beauty, food to eat, and animals to enjoy as companions (not to eat). All they needed was provided. God Himself spent time lovingly relating to them each day. There was only one thing He asked of them and that was not to eat the fruit from a certain tree. God had already shown His love and care for them yet they chose to forget about that and believe the lies and doubt, concerning God and His words, presented to them by the serpent. I don't believe we as humans were created flawed, but we certainly do makes flawed decisions when we attempt to ignore or go against the wisdom of the One who created and loves us to instead listen to and follow the one who hates us and desires our destruction.

I am really sorry you have had to deal with parents that did not raise you with loving care and supportive encouragement.
Are you planning to move away to a different area?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Are you planning to move away to a different area?

Yes. Anywhere else I have looked so far not only has far more job opportunities for me (in other words, jobs that I can mentally tolerate, which does not include factory, retail, or food service) that allow me to develop and apply my skills, they pay better as well. In some areas I can easily make more than 3-times the amount of what I could expect to make here. I'd be lucky to make $10 an hour here, but in other places $30 an hour or more isn't hard to find. I am planning on celebrating my 29th birthday in a new city, preferable Seattle since they have the best job market in America, and because Western Washington is far more liberal than Indiana (beings a transwoman, my chances of employment will be far greater there than if I stay here).

I think there is quite a difference between tossing a steak and offering a choice.

Is it really a choice though when God knows we will sin, when he allowed a sinful nature to pass from Adam and Eve to offspring, and while he kept the temptation in front of us knowing we would succumb to that temptation?

 

[InChrist]

Yes. Anywhere else I have looked so far not only has far more job opportunities for me (in other words, jobs that I can mentally tolerate, which does not include factory, retail, or food service) that allow me to develop and apply my skills, they pay better as well. In some areas I can easily make more than 3-times the amount of what I could expect to make here. I'd be lucky to make $10 an hour here, but in other places $30 an hour or more isn't hard to find. I am planning on celebrating my 29th birthday in a new city, preferable Seattle since they have the best job market in America, and because Western Washington is far more liberal than Indiana (beings a transwoman, my chances of employment will be far greater there than if I stay here).

Is it really a choice though when God knows we will sin, when he allowed a sinful nature to pass from Adam and Eve to offspring, and while he kept the temptation in front of us knowing we would succumb to that temptation?

I think that is a valid question. My perspective is that even though God knew we would sin He allows each of us that option because giving us the ability to choose is such an important part of creating a being made in His image with the freedom to love by choice not force. Yes, He knew we would all at some point choose to sin, but that is where the Savior comes in and offers the way out and the opportunity to become a new creation...but only by choice.

I hope the best for you as you make your move. I would say I'll pray, but I'm sure you don't want to hear that. I really like the western states, so sounds like a good direction to go.

 

[skl]

InChrist said: "I think that is a valid question. My perspective is that even though God knew we would sin He allows each of us that option because giving us the ability to choose is such an important part of creating a being made in His image with the freedom to love by choice not force. Yes, He knew we would all at some point choose to sin, but that is where the Savior comes in and offers the way out and the opportunity to become a newcreation...but only by choice."

It is one thing to temp someone to sin but to hold the rest of humanity as responsible is another, but to use similar logic of this bible story, it appears more likely to be rigged by God because a talking snake could obviously only be created by God and put into the garden to convince Adam and Eve to eat the fruit. Even if he did not put the snake in the garden he knew what was happening and did not attempt to educate or defend his creations.

I would have thought it was a trick or I was insane if a snake talked to me because I know they cannot talk. Of course Adam and Eve were ignorant and had not lived long enough to know that snakes are not supposed to talk and that snakes that talk can lie. I mean who today would believe a talking snake? It is unbelievable when you take into context of what God is supposed to be capable of that a powerful creator would create such a huge design flaw. If he wanted us to have choice he obviously should have been smart enough to know the risks of decision making, therefore this indicates the sinning was expected and the situation rigged, after all he had a motive to want the excuse and the rights to obtain never ending worship from his creation. Obviously if you give humans or animals choice they will make the wrong decisions as much as the right decisions, it could be averaged as a 50%/50% ratio without the snake or God present to convince either way but the snake increased the odds to more like 80% in favour of sinning.

 

[Muffled]

I guess my point was - because accepting Christ is supposedly the only way to redemption, God is said to always be working out the way in which to woo you to the "light side". Supposedly giving you cues here and there, pushing you in the right direction. Where was God in the formation of a child forced "through the system" in a harmful way? Where is the gentle hinting and loving direction for someone who has only been shown a darker side to any of it? Doesn't everyone get their chance do "do it right"? If not... then what is the real point?

I believe it worked for me because I rejected the darker side and that helped me to accept the light. Why hasn't it worked that way for you ? Did you really love that dark side so much you would rather have it than Christ?

 

[Muffled]

My father has never served as my model of god. I didn't need him to understand God's love.

According to god, I was to oppress myself, and forfeit any hope or chance of authentic living or an authentic life.

God was the one who humiliated me. While I was a Christian, I felt great shame over many things. Any sort of sexual urges were shameful, sexual curiosities about men were shameful, and knowing that I should have been born female, and needing to live as being acknowledged as female, was the most shameful of all.
But even a lot of knowledge was forbidden, a lot of it was obscured, and if it wasn't from a church source it was discouraged.
Lucifer empowered me. Rather than tossing me pre-approved knowledge to fit into his worldview in order to quench my thirst for knowledge, he put a handful of salt in my mouth to drive me to seek sources of water to quench my thirst, but it has not yet been quenched. Rather than telling me to be ashamed and keep myself buried deep inside, he told me their is no reason I shouldn't live my life as I should live it.

I believe Satan has brainwashed you into not being a Christian.

 

[viole]

I don't see it that way.

Well, I do. Unless you think that Apollo and Ganesh are a version of your God. If not, then it is obvious that something goes, or went, wrong with that interaction.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I believe Satan has brainwashed you into not being a Christian.

Why would he need to brainwash me when he gave me the Keys to my freedom and I gladly accepted?
God was oppressive, and I was required to think a certain way.
Lucifer freed me of the oppression, and I have been able to gain vast wealths of knowledge since then.
We don't keep in touch much these days, but he did give me the kindling to get the Flames Within burning, and today those flames are raging.

 

[InChrist]

It is one thing to temp someone to sin but to hold the rest of humanity as responsible is another, but to use similar logic of this bible story, it appears more likely to be rigged by God because a talking snake could obviously only be created by God and put into the garden to convince Adam and Eve to eat the fruit. Even if he did not put the snake in the garden he knew what was happening and did not attempt to educate or defend his creations.

I would have thought it was a trick or I was insane if a snake talked to me because I know they cannot talk. Of course Adam and Eve were ignorant and had not lived long enough to know that snakes are not supposed to talk and that snakes that talk can lie. I mean who today would believe a talking snake? It is unbelievable when you take into context of what God is supposed to be capable of that a powerful creator would create such a huge design flaw. If he wanted us to have choice he obviously should have been smart enough to know the risks of decision making, therefore this indicates the sinning was expected and the situation rigged, after all he had a motive to want the excuse and the rights to obtain never ending worship from his creation. Obviously if you give humans or animals choice they will make the wrong decisions as much as the right decisions, it could be averaged as a 50%/50% ratio without the snake or God present to convince either way but the snake increased the odds to more like 80% in favour of sinning.[/QUOTE

I think you have some misunderstandings concerning what the scriptures say. They say that God does not tempt anyone to sin. The rest of humanity is not held responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve. All people sin and are responsible for their own sins. God did not create a talking snake. The Bible gives enough examples of the power of Satan or demonic beings to possess people or animals to explain what took place with the serpent in the garden. I think the bottom line is that Adam and Eve CHOSE to listen to and follow the advice of Satan who planted thoughts of discontent and doubt in their minds, rather than trust and remain faithful to the Creator God who had blessed them with His love and abundant provision.

I don't believe that God who is complete and Self-existent needs our worship for a second or has any motive to obtain worship from His creation. Do you know what worship means? I think the fact is that it is we who need to worship God and all kinds of spiritual, emotional, mental, and social problems occur when we don't.

 

[skl]

My version of Adam and Eve are just as believable as the ones on this website Who is Jesus Christ? Who is Jesus Christ?


In fact after reading some of the explanations on this site I believe it reinforces the fact that both had only been alive for a day or two, basically uneducated and therefore would have been confused. How they could converse is a mystery, but I guess God could read the minds and enabled them to understand his language. It obviously appears that eve must have been young, naive and trusting, consequently it is more than likely she was conned by a wise snake rather than deciding to sin against God, just as we can be today by clever talking con men and American TV evangelists. This may have been an injustice but this is what happens if you do not have a system of law and use a jury.


If a talking snake and creating a woman from a rib is not enough to convince you this is true, the other details on this site such as did Adam and Eve have belly buttons, legends that Adam had a wife before Eve who was named Lilith, and Adam and Eve were created in approximately 4000 B.C and were the first humans on earth and primitive cavemen did not exist but dinosaurs probably lived with humans are really going to seal it for you.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I believe it worked for me because I rejected the darker side and that helped me to accept the light. Why hasn't it worked that way for you ? Did you really love that dark side so much you would rather have it than Christ?

You probably need to read back through the history of what posts I was replying to and what those, in turn, were in response to. I was basically commenting on someone else's explanation of their life/religion story. Not even close to mine.

And here's where I blow your mind. I have basically lived a nearly "charmed" life, of a sort, and yet I am not a believer. Nor do I dip my cup into many of the sins you'd sit there and say were of "the darker side". I was raised by good parents, who I love dearly. I have a wife and 3 children, any of whom I would die for without hesitation if the need arose. I rarely drink, hate the club/strip/gambling scene, laugh at peer pressure, have what I consider to be a strong sense of justice, I'm a vegan for ethical reasons over health, and I am in good health - have been to the doctor for super-minor (ridiculously minor, honestly) issues maybe 3 times in the past 20 years, I don't believe that I have ever truly suffered throughout my life, to be honest - holding a stark understanding that someone else has always had it worse than I ever have. Not saying I haven't made mistakes, done the wrong thing from time to time in my life - but I am no detriment to society by any stretch of the imagination. In all seriousness I have emotionally hurt 2 people for sure that I can think of, and have never intentionally hurt anyone physically - well... that's discounting my brother because, hey, we're brothers, and also discounting a very few times I felt I had to act in self-defense.

If God exists, and all the rules that people have come up with and written down do, indeed, apply in His eyes, then I'll accept my fate - whatever He deems necessary. I take full responsibility for my beliefs, or lack thereof - and as of yet, I have found myself unable to be moved or swayed by any testimony, or any supposed "show" of power. The realm of the religious and spiritual is lost on me, entirely, and I couldn't care much less about that. And before you go smirking to yourself and snidely point out that I am here on a "religious" forum, which you might say puts me in the shoes of one "seeking" - that's garbage. I am here for the same reasons as anyone here. Putting my word out and trying to make people question a bit more - hoping that some might come to understand some of the things that I feel I understand. In a way it is perhaps a quest for validation - I'm not here to save anyone, but to search the nooks and crannies of ideas and philosophies to make sure I've rooted everything out that needs rooting out in order to prove to myself that the way I think is the correct one.

 

[skl]

InChrist said: "don't believe that God who is complete and Self-existent needs our worship for a second or has any motive to obtain worship from His creation. Do you know what worship means? I think the fact is that it is we who need to worship God and all kinds of spiritual, emotional, mental, and social problems occur when we don't."


I do not believe that for a second. The problems occur when religious people (especially Young Earth Creationists) condemn groups of people in our society. The problems occur when children are indoctrinated by religious parents and church officials. The problems occur when children are told to ignore the scientific progress taught by teachers at school and the stories in the bible are true. The problems occur when it is claimed all other religions are inferior. The problems occur when frightened people actually believe in Satan and they will go to hell if they do not worship God. The problems occur when people believe and live every literal word within the bible. The problems occur when a religious politician makes policies based on his faith. Do you want more or do you get this message?

 

[JoStories]

Humans being are not dogs or cars. I believe that since the scriptures say we are made in the image of God there is a huge difference and that includes the possibility to choose. From my perspective it is obvious that if there were any other way God could have designed humans without violating this attribute of freewill which He must consider very important and necessary He would have done so. This freedom to choose does come with the risk of bad choices, but God has provided a way of true change and freedom for sin forever (by personal choice) for any who desire. I think it is an incredible offer based on real love.



[QUOTE I]'d be put to death just because my parents were lousy parents. My mom mocked me as my body was changing during puberty, she yelled at me once and told me she could replace me, and she kept threatening to send me away to a "troubled" kids home. My dad was hardly ever around and he left one night. Parents should not be honored just for being parents, and many parents do in fact deserve the scorn of their child.

Your parents don't sound very nice or loving and may not deserve any honor, but to be filled with hatred toward them only harms you. I think forgiveness, even when others don't deserve it brings freedom from the past and for the future. One thing I have experienced in my own life is that such freeing forgiveness is very difficult or even sometimes impossible without the power of God's grace.[/QUOTE]
So you think I should forgive my grandfather for having raped me countless times? No. I don't think so. Move beyond the trauma, yes. Beyond an advocate for other survivors, you betcha. But forgive a lecherous creep? No. Do you think I should have forgiven the man who dumped his comatose wife at the ER with mold growing on bedsores that went beyond the bone or should I have reported his pathetic arse and sent the SOB to jail? I could recount this kind of story ad nauseum but I won't because they make me weep to this day. Forgive this type of person or crime? Never.