I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[Trailblazer]

Relatively few, and statistically insignificant. And most converts seem to be either damaged in some way or serial converters, hopping from religion to religion, looking for an "answer" to a non-existent question. Cases of well-educated, well-adjusted, happy, comfortable atheists converting to religion are so rare as to be essentially non-existent.

It is probably pretty rare.
It’s far more common for religious people to become atheists than it is for non-believers to find God.

No one knows why atheists return to religion

 

[Triumph]

You are totally confused.
You don't need a Bible .. you just need "love" and a cross
You aren't interested in Divine guidance .. just some belief that means you can do what you like .. man-made law is OK to you, but not G-d made law.

Jesus

You are totally confused.
You don't need a Bible .. you just need "love" and a cross
You aren't interested in Divine guidance .. just some belief that means you can do what you like .. man-made law is OK to you, but not G-d made law.

Jesus was forced to die on that cross and it represents the hatred people have for innocent people that do not agree with them. Jesus said pick up your cross and follow him. Jesus was hung on that cross for blasphemy when Jesus was telling the truth. That means if you believe the truth in a world of hateful men willing to kill you for your God given right to freedom of speech and your God given right to freedom of religious belief, then be brave enough to stand for truth and your God given right to life. Do not bend the knee to men that lie believing God wants them to kill people. Do not join them.
The COMMAND of God is to love everyone even those considered the enemy. THAT is a LAW of GOD and true Divine Guidance.
John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
JESUS said with guidance from GOD,
John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."
Jesus taught consider all men your brother and treat them as beloved family. Peter called all men, "beloved brother"
1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"
John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

 

[CG Didymus]

Given that god can do anything, and the universe doesn't have to be a certain way - why did god create evil at all? What was the point?
If I was an omni-everything god and I wanted to create a universe (and I wasn't a psychopath), I wouldn't include evil in it.
Imagine a world without evil. Everyone getting along, everyone being helpful. No wars or murders or rapes and stuff.
What was god thinking?!

Assuming religion is made up by people that are trying to explain why things are the way they are, I can see how they came up with the explanations they did. But each religion explains it different. With Baha'is, their God is perfect, so nothing bad came from him. So, who else to blame? People. So, their explanation puts it all on us. We disobeyed God. What we should do and need to do is come to believe in God and his prophet and do the things he said. As if then there will be no more evil? They say that the "light" dispels the "darkness".

I doubt following the Baha'i laws are going to get rid of evil. But I'll bet that all the evil that continues to happen will be blamed on people for not following God's laws.

This is a problem that many apologists struggle with.
The god they describe in this argument is merely observing our actions and then saying "I knew you would do that" - and anyone can do that.

Yeah, something bad happens? "Oh yes, God knew that's what would happen"? Then they show some vague prophecies to prove it.

 

[KWED]

Evil is simply the absence of good...

This makes no sense. It is just a meaningless platitude trotted out when people point out that god is responsible for the existence of evil.
How is evil "the absence of good"? How would that work? Do you really think that unless someone is actively going good, they are evil? Are you evil while you are asleep? Is "good" a tangible thing that we need to carry around with us, and if we lose it we become evil - a transformation we have no control over?

And even if we assume this to be true, it was god who created the condition whereby "the absence of good = evil", when he could have made it so "the absence of good = meh". So he is still responsible when a dictator commits genocide or a father rapes his daughters or homosexuals are murdered by right-wing extremists, etc.

God allowed it because he wanted people to be able to love him freely...

So if I want my children to love me freely, I have to make their lives dangerous and unpleasant?
Sorry, but that is just weird.

That is impossible if they didn't have the freedom to also hate him.

More meaningless nonsense. If god had not created hate, then it would not have been part of the equation. Nothing is "necessary" for god. So many of these "arguments" by apologists imply that god is constrained by considerations external to him. You are basically saying that god had to create hate in order for love to work, which means that the interaction between love and hate exists outside of god's power, a brute fact that he is bound by.
Which would mean he isn't god.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus was forced to die on that cross and it represents the hatred people have for innocent people that do not agree with them. Jesus said pick up your cross and follow him. Jesus was hung on that cross for blasphemy when Jesus was telling the truth. That means if you believe the truth in a world of hateful men willing to kill you for your God given right to freedom of speech and your God given right to freedom of religious belief, then be brave enough to stand for truth and your God given right to life. Do not bend the knee to men that lie believing God wants them to kill people. Do not join them.
The COMMAND of God is to love everyone even those considered the enemy. THAT is a LAW of GOD and true Divine Guidance.
John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
JESUS said with guidance from GOD,
John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."
Jesus taught consider all men your brother and treat them as beloved family. Peter called all men, "beloved brother"
1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"
John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Clearly, the New Testament superseded the Old Testament as a newer revelation from God.
I don't know what Christians insist on clinging to the Old Testament.

 

[Trailblazer]

Like all bible quotes... oh that bit isn't literal but the other bit is. Religion is the ability to force square pegs into round holes.

No, we just have to figure out what the verses mean. Much of the Bible is figurative, not literal.

 

[KWED]

What we think is favor maybe the exact opposite... For example wealthy, successful people are often miserable people, and people that have nothing but believe mightily in the power of God are often happy.

God generally seems to favour well-educated, well-adjusted people in stable societies, and to dislike people born into poverty and social disadvantage.
Basically, god is a snob.

 

[KWED]

How is it good for them if they're miserable?

What makes you think wealthy people are miserable? Do you know any?
In my experience, not having to worry about money makes life less miserable.
Financial problems is one of the top causes of anxiety and relationship troubles.

 

[John53]

No, we just have to figure out what the verses mean. Much of the Bible is figurative, not literal.

Which circles back to one of your other threads about how God should communicate. If you need to figure it out and only a fraction of the population has the ability to do that then the only thing I can come up with is God is evil or stupid or doesn't exist.

 

[CG Didymus]

That would completely defuse your question: why does God favor some, but not others, if He loves all equally?

the answer to that is obvious: because there is no God. Especially if He is assumed to be good and fair.

A concept like God works to explain some things. "Where did we come from?" "God made us." "What happens after we die?" "Are souls go to a spirit world."

"Why do some people suffer more than others? Then it starts getting complicated. "Some are being punished, and some are being tested." "Why are kids getting blown up in Ukraine? Why doesn't God do something?" "He could... but, right now he doesn't. Someday, he will reward those that have suffered." At some point a perfect, all-loving God just doesn't make sense anymore.

 

[KWED]

Hide in the mountains is hide in caves

Caves are pretty useless as fallout shelters.

I assumed people would realize that to be under thick dirt then one is in a cave but glad you pointed that out because it is advantageous for people to know the closest cave in their area.

Yep. Definitely been Poed!

China is going to attack Taiwan and the island nations in hopes to take their sovereign rights away and take their land and resources.

You should read up on your geo-political military studies. An amphibious assault on Taiwan is not practical, even for China, and an annihilation attack would be against China's interests (short and long term).

it is said "a third of the sea becomes blood".

Not physically possible. Stop reading nonsense. It will rot your brain.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which circles back to one of your other threads about how God should communicate. If you need to figure it out and only a fraction of the population has the ability to do that then the only thing I can come up with is God is evil or stupid or doesn't exist.

It is not a small fraction of the population, it is most of the population.

According to the statistics, 84 percent of the world population has a faith.

Because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are holy men who founded the religions, so they are intermediaries between God and man. Sure, there are a few believers who believe in God but not a Messenger but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers or holy men very few people would believe in God.

Since only about 7% of the population are atheists and agnostics that means that about 9% of the population believes in God without having a religion.

According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists). Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia

 

[CG Didymus]

Evil is simply the absence of good... God allowed it because he wanted people to be able to love him freely... That is impossible if they didn't have the freedom to also hate him.

Yes, a very simple way to explain away evil. But who created a planet where earthquakes, tidal waves, tornadoes, forest fires, etc. exist? All harmful things to people. Things that I'd imagine would continue even if everybody loved God.

So, are those things "evil", or just the way the natural world works? In ancient times, I could see how people probably thought that those things were judgements from God. Even in the Bible, they sound like judgements from God. Are they? And if they are, again... would they stop if all people loved God? I don't think they would. The physical world I think will continue doing what it does. But we'll never know, because I doubt all people will ever "love" some religions ideas about a God. So, religions will always have enough sinful and evil people to blame for all our troubles.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Perhaps you are not aware, but meaningless religious platitudes tend to have little impact on rational thinkers.
Instead of constantly quoting some deluded, 19th century Persian hippy, why not try formulating your own ideas? Just a thought.

My personal thoughts are worthless.

If I base them on what God has offered, they have some effect, be it positive or negative.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Given that god can do anything, and the universe doesn't have to be a certain way - why did god create evil at all? What was the point?
If I was an omni-everything god and I wanted to create a universe (and I wasn't a psychopath), I wouldn't include evil in it.
Imagine a world without evil. Everyone getting along, everyone being helpful. No wars or murders or rapes and stuff.
What was god thinking?!

I see the passage translates to the fact that in giving us the ability to love, the opposite of love is also possible.

So why doe we choose war when Love is our goal, our capacity?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Which circles back to one of your other threads about how God should communicate. If you need to figure it out and only a fraction of the population has the ability to do that then the only thing I can come up with is God is evil or stupid or doesn't exist.

I think there's a good argument that the Christian and Baha'i concept of God makes him evil and stupid. With Christianity he creates Satan? Stupid, but at least he had someone to blame for evil. God puts a tree in the middle of a garden and tells Adam and Eve not to eat its fruit? That's evil. He set them up for a fall. And when they did, he cursed them.

Baha'i... God sends several manifestations of God but didn't have them write down the message. Stupid. He let corrupt people take control of his religions. Evil.

Bible... He gives the Jews laws that he knows they can't follow completely. When people fail to follow some of those laws, God orders them to be stoned to death. Evil. God tries to get rid of all evil people and just save the few who love him and listen to him. He floods the whole world killing all but a few animals along with all the evil people, including the children? They were unredeemable? Evil.

But God loves us and wants us to be saved, so he sends his only son, Jesus. But Baha'is tell us that most of that message is false. We were not born in "sin". We didn't inherit sin from Adam. And then with the sacrificial death of Jesus and his supposed resurrection, Baha'is tell us that he didn't come back to life. He's dead and gone and only his spirit was raised. So, we're getting mixed messages from God about what is the truth and what is made up "stuff". That's evil and stupid. So, yeah, I can see what you mean.

 

[John53]

It is not a small fraction of the population, it is most of the population.

According to the statistics, 84 percent of the world population has a faith.

Because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are holy men who founded the religions, so they are intermediaries between God and man. Sure, there are a few believers who believe in God but not a Messenger but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers or holy men very few people would believe in God.

Since only about 7% of the population are atheists and agnostics that means that about 9% of the population believes in God without having a religion.

According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists). Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia

Yes, 84% of the population following thousands of different gods and millions of different interpretations each convinced they have the special knowledge and follow the one true god. That's exactly what I was talking about.

 

[muhammad_isa]

At some point a perfect, all-loving God just doesn't make sense anymore.

Exactly..
Those that claim that all we need to know is to love each other and Jesus died on a cross to save us all, does not explain the world we find ourselves in.
It makes zero sense.

 

[CG Didymus]

My personal thoughts are worthless.

If I base them on what God has offered, they have some effect, be it positive or negative.

Regards Tony

Same old problem... What "God" has offered depends on who we're talking to and which religion and even what sect of a religion they belong to. Baha'is have some good teachings. But so do the other religions.

And, of course, Baha'is believe that. But then... once we dig deeper, all the religions disagree about a lot of things. So, "what" God has "offered" according to the Baha'i teachings is more accurate to what you are saying. Unfortunately, some of us do find some things in the Baha'i Faith as being false. But I do agree with a lot of it. But who can believe in any religion without believing the whole thing? Most religions make it an all or nothing proposition. And don't believe the Baha'i Faith is 100% true and accurate.

Oh, and your personal thoughts I wouldn't call "worthless". What you know. What you've been through. Why you believe what you do. I think those things would be very meaningful. I hope it's just you wanting to be humble and not wanting to compare your knowledge with God's. And really don't feel yourself to be so lowly and worthless.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, 84% of the population following thousands of different gods and millions of different interpretations each convinced they have the special knowledge and follow the one true god. That's exactly what I was talking about.

In ancient times it was probably close to 100%. But each tribe, each culture, each empire or whatever all had different Gods. But they all believed. And sometimes had to believe or be killed.