I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[Sheldon]

That whole essay is irrelevant to my argument.
It seems to rely on the same old fallacy that "there can only be one outcome, so we have no choice".

It is totally false. We DO have a choice, but the statement is misleading as it implies the choice that G-d knows we will make is being caused by the known outcome. It isn't.

That's because it doesn't violate a basic principle of logic, whereas as your claim does.

Do you believe, we can we make any choice, other than the one a deity has always known we will make?

 

[Sheldon]

Ummm .. of course the choice is "set" ..

oh good grief...

So no free will then.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Now, can we make any choice other the one you believe (not me for clarity), a deity knows we will make? No more obfuscation, just a straight answer please.

No.
Oh my goodness .. that must mean I have no choice .. I have no free-will.
Well, well, well

[ How pathetic ]

 

[Sheldon]

Assuming that god does exist in "another time frame" how does that affect the issue of infallible omniscience fixing the future in our linear time frame?
An explanation is required, not just a mere assertion.

Ah, I anticipate a problem there, he seems happy to make assertions, but less keen to justify or support them. It's odd how often apologists think an unevidenced assertion can be justified with another unevidenced assertion, often reeling them off in tandem.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The future is set by our choices.
Can we do other than what they will end up being .. no?
How surprising !

 

[Sheldon]

No.
Oh my goodness .. that must mean I have no choice .. I have no free-will.
Well, well, well

[ How pathetic ]

What's pathetic is that straw man, and your dishonesty here. Having demanded I answer your question, even though I had answered it many times before, and got my answer again, you now still refuse to answer mine.

Do you believe we can make any choice, other than the one (you believe) a deity has always known we will make?

Each time you evade it, the inference gets harder to ignore.

 

[Sheldon]

The future is set by our choices.
Can we do other than what they will end up being .. no?
How surprising !

Do you believe we can make any choice, other than the one that (you believe), is the exact one a deity has always known we will choose?

 

[muhammad_isa]

What's pathetic is that straw man, and your dishonesty here. Having demanded I answer your question, even though I had answered it many times before, and got my answer again, you now still refuse to answer mine.

Do you believe we can make any choice, other than the one (you believe) a deity has always known we will make?

Each time you evade it, the inference gets harder to ignore.

Ha ha .. I just said "No" .. never mind

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you believe we can make any choice, other than the one that (you believe), is the exact one a deity has always known we will choose?

NO .. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT WE CAN MAKE A CHOICE OTHER THAN GOD KNOWS WE WILL CHOOSE

Why .. do you?

 

[Sheldon]

The future is set by our choices.
Can we do other than what they will end up being .. no?
How surprising !

if the future is set how do we have free will?

 

[Sheldon]

Now, can we make any choice other the one you believe (not me for clarity), a deity knows we will make? No more obfuscation, just a straight answer please.

Ha ha .. I just said "No" .. never mind

My apologies I missed that in the histrionics.

So you believe we only have one choice then, finally thank you for admitting your belief negates free will. Albeit unwittingly.

 

[Sheldon]

Do you believe we can make any choice, other than the one that (you believe), is the exact one a deity has always known we will choose?

NO .. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT WE CAN MAKE A CHOICE OTHER THAN GOD KNOWS WE WILL CHOOSE

Why .. do you?

So that negates free will, obviously if we are limited to only that choice.

I am an atheist, so why would I believe a claim involving a deity?

 

[ppp]

There is no such universe where God makes our choices for us. There is only a universe where humans have free will to choose.

You are just mining for keywords. That does not address content.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So that negates free will, obviously if we are limited to only that choice.

I am an atheist, so why would I believe a claim involving a deity?

The only reason we are "limited to only that choice" is because G-d knows what you will choose. It doesn't follow that we are not free in that choice.

It is merely your opinion .. not mine.
I see that our choice determines what G-d knows, and not the other way round as you claim.

In any case .. you've given your opinion as an atheist .. and you think it is irrational to believe in an omniscient G-d.

 

[Sheldon]

There is no such universe where God makes our choices for us.

I am inclined to believe you. since I see no objective evidence for any deity.

There is only a universe where humans have free will to choose.

Well free will is something of a misnomer, but as conscious beings, we have a certain amount of autonomy governed by circumstance. Though this would not be the case of course, if a deity knew what we would would do, before we did it. Since logically this would render out choices an illusion.

 

[Sheldon]

The only reason we are "limited to only that choice" is because G-d knows what you will choose. It doesn't follow that we are not free in that choice.

Free to make only one choice, I think you have stopped arguing for free will, and are arguing the opposite, albeit perhaps unintentionally.

 

[KWED]

..and I am constantly giving explanations..

Not ones that are logically coherent.

The future has to be "fixed" by something.
I say that it is fixed by our choices.
What are you claiming they are fixed by?

And if those choices are already fixed - which they must be if god has infallible foreknowledge of them, then the future is fixed by the fixing of those choices.

If you are claiming it is the knowledge that G-d holds that fixes it, then where did He get that knowledge from?

From having knowledge of events before they happen, obvs. That is the whole point.

I've already told you that G-d knows because "we have already made our choices", as far as G-d perceives.

But we haven't yet made them. God only knows that we will make them.

 

[Sheldon]

I see that our choice determines what G-d knows, and not the other way round as you claim.

That isn't what you have previously claimed obviously, and does not rationally follow from your previous claims that a deity knows exactly what we will do, before we make the choice. Also my objections were to the rational contradictions in your claims, since this violates a basic principle of logic. I was not just offering an opinion, and it had nothing to do with atheism, but with logic.

 

[KWED]

Your choice IS inevitable. It will be what it will be.
Known or unknown.
The key lies in how it is known, and not just the fact that it is known .. as you claim.

Just for sake of argument, if G-d was right only 80% of the time, would we still not have free-will .. according to you?

If god does not have infallible foreknowledge of events, then of course those events aren't fixed. It is no different from me guessing about what you will have for dinner tomorrow.

 

[Sheldon]

I am constantly giving explanations..

Explanations cannot appeal to mystery or magic or the supernatural, that is axiomatic. As these things have no explanatory power.