I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[Sheldon]

How can we have already made our choices before we have made them? Remember that we experience time in a linear fashion.
So basically you are saying that the future is fixed and unchangeable. It is a single track that we are blindly and inevitably following and there is no way to alter its course.
But we still have free will to alter its course.

I know, it's a massive irony overload, do you think they genuinely believe this nonsense?

1. A deity knows exactly what we will choose and always has known.
2. We cannot make any choice other than the one that deity knows we will choose.
3. Oh, and we have free will to choose anything we want.

 

[KWED]

I know, it's a massive irony overload, do you think they genuinely believe this nonsense?

1. A deity knows exactly what we will choose and always has known.
2. We cannot make any choice other than the one that deity knows we will choose.
3. Oh, and we have free will to choose anything we want.

I just looked up "cognitive dissonance" in the OED, and it had a list of muhammad_isa and Trailblazer's posts from this thread.

 

[samtonga43]

Cain and Abel are the first two sons of Adam and Eve after they were expelled from the Garden of Eden in the biblical book of Genesis. According to the biblical story, Cain killed Abel because God accepted Abel's sacrifice but rejected Cain's. With this act of jealousy, Cain became the first murderer.
Cain & Abel
As I see it, the lesson is not to commit murder out of jealousy.

But it's OK to commit murder for other reasons?

 

[John53]

But it's OK to commit murder for other reasons?

Sheez, talk about jumping to conclusions.

 

[Trailblazer]

None. The same goes for following a known script to a known conclusion, it's pointless.

So you think life is pointless unless we are doing something?

We are following a script that is known only to God.
We are acting out that script by exercising our own free will.
Nothing in that script has happened until we acted it out.

Yes, they're a dime a dozen. Jim Jones, David Koresh , Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, Bikram Yoga, L Ron Hubbard etc etc. I've even seen self professed messengers of God toting their wares on RF.

None of those people were Messengers of God. Joseph Smith was a seer but all the others were false prophets.

The major Messengers of God were Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

But it's OK to commit murder for other reasons?

I never said that.

 

[Sheldon]

We are following a script that is known only to God.

So much for free will.

 

[John53]

So you think life is pointless?

No. I think if your version of life is fact then it's pointless. I enjoy life as best I can.

We are following a script that is known only to God.
We are acting out that script by exercising our own free will.
Nothing in that script has happened until we acted it out.

I understand your reasoning as I've said. It doesn't make logical sense to me and I don't understand how it makes logical sense to anyone. It is most likely a man made excuse to explain the failings of their man made God concept.

None of those people were Messengers of God. Joseph Smith was a seer but all the others were false prophets.

The major Messengers of God were Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

According to you, many others claim differently.

 

[muhammad_isa]

How can we have already made our choices before we have made them?

I know .. it's confusing.
As far as we are concerned, we perceive that we haven't made them yet. We also perceive time as passing from the past to the future.
While the past is known, the future is hidden from us.

G-d [ that you don't believe exists ] has an entirely different perception. God created this space-time continuum and is not part of it. As far as G-d is concerned, He perceives we have already made the choices. It's as if we are in some kind of time warp.

 

[John53]

I know .. it's confusing.
As far as we are concerned, we perceive that we haven't made them yet. We also perceive time as passing from the past to the future.
While the past is known, the future is hidden from us.

G-d [ that you don't believe exists ] has an entirely different perception. God created this space-time continuum and is not part of it. As far as G-d is concerned, He perceives we have already made the choices. It's as if we are in some kind of time warp.

How can anyone know how a God experiences time?

 

[muhammad_isa]

How can anyone know how a God experiences time?

Through scripture..

"The pen is lifted, and the ink is dry"

 

[John53]

Through scripture..

"The pen is lifted, and the ink is dry"

Scripture can be interpreted any way the reader wants.

 

[Sheldon]

How can anyone know how a God experiences time?

Oh muhammed isa says "know", like Trailblazer, but they mean assume of course.

 

[Sheldon]

Through scripture..

Subjective second hand (at least) hearsay.

 

[Tiberius]

That is a false.

You have just said "I NEVER SAID GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE IS WHAT MAKES ME CHOOSE IT."

..so what makes you choose it then?

You don't get it...

I DON'T CHOOSE IT.

If it's not a choice, then I am not choosing it, am I?

Really, look at the argument you are using here.

I can say that I know that the lawyer is going to run out of the car in Jurassic Park. But my knowledge of this is not what causes him to run is it? This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

 

[Trailblazer]

No. I think if your version of life is fact then it's pointless. I enjoy life as best I can.

What do you think my version of life is?

I understand your reasoning as I've said. It doesn't make logical sense to me and I don't understand how it makes logical sense to anyone. It is most likely a man made excuse to explain the failings of their man made God concept.

I'm confused. I do not understand how humans acting out a script with free will is related to a man made excuse to explain the failings of a man made God concept.

According to you, many others claim differently.

Claims are just claims unless the alleged Messenger has evidence to back up His claims.

 

[Tiberius]

Your logical reasoning is based upon a complete absence of knowledge about God, which is what you are trying to reason about. For obvious logical reasons that can never work. You cannot make claims about how God would operate when you know nothing about God.

I was a Christian for half my life. How arrogant of you to decide what I know/don't know about God.

By contrast, my logical reasoning is based upon knowledge of what God is and how God operates, and what it means for God to be omniscient.

You have assumptions and supposition. You do not have knowledge. You have ideas which are consistent with the story you have learned.

I have tried to explain why I came to a different conclusion but you rejected my explanations.

Because you tried to provide REASONING for it, and as you said, religion "is a matter of belief, not a matter of reasoning..."

If you try to use reasoning to justify your beliefs, you will fail every single time.

 

[John53]

What do you think my version of life is?

I was referring to the acting out of a predetermined script part of your theology we've been discussing here. I don't presume to know your entire life or theology.

I'm confused. I do not understand how humans acting out a script with free will is related to a man made excuse to explain the failings of a man made God concept.

I say why doesn't God protect children from abusers. The standard excuse for [insert favourite God here] is free will. That's the general answer, the specific answer for this topic is you haven't demonstrated to me how not having the ability to change the course of my life and having free will makes any sense. One answer or the other is an excuse to explain a failure of logic.

Claims are just claims unless the alleged Messenger has evidence to back up His claims.

Exactly and I'm yet to see sufficient evidence to convince me any of the messengers have the answer.

I hope that makes sense, my mind is elsewhere, heavy rain causing flooding around me and I have a 40 minute drive later today to get the dog to the vet. I don't want to go and risk getting cut off but I feel guilty because she's uncomfortable. Free will is causing me distress.

 

[Tiberius]

You KEEP SAYING that you cannot choose the blue shirt if God knows that you will choose the red shirt so you are saying that God's foreknowledge is forcing you to wear the red shirt.
Yet you are claiming that God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice. #514

You cannot have it both ways.

I have knowledge that the lawyer will run from the car in Jurassic Park. Is it my knowledge that is forcing him to run?

The support is in scriptures, which is the only way we can ever know anything about God.

The support that I can turn into a fire breathing dragon is in post 5547 of the "Evidence for God's Existence" thread, which is the only way you can know, about me being about to turn into a fire breathing dragon.

 

[Tiberius]

When you say you have to choose the red shirt because God knows you will choose the red shirt you are saying that God's foreknowledge is making you choose the red shirt, as I just explained in my previous post.

When you say that the lawyer will run from the car in Jurassic Park because I know that the lawyer will run from the car, you are saying that my knowledge that the lawyer will run from the car is making the lawyer run from the car.

See how ridiculous that reasoning is?