I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[muhammad_isa]

Scripture can be interpreted any way the reader wants.

Of course it can. It all depends on your intention .. and overall knowledge.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You don't get it...

I DON'T CHOOSE IT.

What rubbish.
People that drive along the highway suddenly are not the ones driving if an agent is aware of the future?

It's like something out of a science fiction novel. It doesn't correspond to reality.

 

[Trailblazer]

I was a Christian for half my life. How arrogant of you to decide what I know/don't know about God.

You are not a Christian now so you cannot use that ploy. Either you have rejected Christianity and the Christian God or you are a Christian who believes in the Christian God. You cannot have it both ways.

You have assumptions and supposition. You do not have knowledge. You have ideas which are consistent with the story you have learned.

No, I have what Baha'u'llah wrote about God which is consistent with the Bible God and the God of the Qur'an.
You have assumptions and supposition about God since you have rejected the God that is revealed in religions.

Because you tried to provide REASONING for it, and as you said, religion "is a matter of belief, not a matter of reasoning..."

If you try to use reasoning to justify your beliefs, you will fail every single time.

This is not about my religion, it is simple logic.
This has nothing to do with me trying to justify my religious beliefs.

Regarding free will and God's omniscience coexisting, I came to the same conclusions as @muhammad_isa who is not a Baha'i. The one true God operates the same way in every Abrahamic religion.

 

[Tiberius]

What rubbish.
People that drive along the highway suddenly are not the ones driving if an agent is aware of the future?

It's like something out of a science fiction novel. It doesn't correspond to reality.

If the outcome is set, then we are just actors following a script written by someone else. We can not decide for ourselves what path we take, since we are bound to take the path determined by the scriptwriter.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have knowledge that the lawyer will run from the car in Jurassic Park. Is it my knowledge that is forcing him to run?

No, not any more than God's knowledge of what color shirt you will wear forces you to wear any particular color shirt.

 

[Tiberius]

You are not a Christian now so you cannot use that ploy. Either you have rejected Christianity and the Christian God or you are a Christian who believes in the Christian God. You cannot have it both ways.

One does not need to be a believer in something in order to understand that thing.

No, I have what Baha'u'llah wrote about God which is consistent with the Bible God and the God of the Qur'an.

How can that possibly be when you have said many times that all the other religions - such as Christianity and Islam - have been corrupted?

You have assumptions and supposition about God since you have rejected the God that is revealed in religions.

And you don't have assumptions about God? That's a laugh.

This is not about my religion, it is simple logic.
This has nothing to do with me trying to justify my religious beliefs.

Like I said, you said religious belief was not about reasoning, so why are you trying to use reasoning here?

Regarding free will and God's omniscience coexisting, I came to the same conclusions as @muhammad_isa who is not a Baha'i. The one true God operates the same way in every Abrahamic religion.

Then you are both wrong, because your ideas require a contradiction.

 

[John53]

Of course it can. It all depends on your intention .. and overall knowledge.

So you claim some kind of special knowledge that allows you to interpret it correctly? I can't make head nor tail out of most it.

 

[Trailblazer]

When you say that the lawyer will run from the car in Jurassic Park because I know that the lawyer will run from the car, you are saying that my knowledge that the lawyer will run from the car is making the lawyer run from the car.

See how ridiculous that reasoning is?

When you say that you will wear the red shirt on Friday because God knows you will wear the red shirt on Friday, you are saying that God's knowledge that you will wear the red shirt on Friday is making you wear the red shirt on Friday.

See how ridiculous that reasoning is?

 

[Trailblazer]

One does not need to be a believer in something in order to understand that thing.

Either you understand God according to the Bible (Christian) or you do not believe in God (atheist).
You cannot have it both ways.
The Bible God gave us free will to use and the Bible God is also omniscient.

How can that possibly be when you have said many times that all the other religions - such as Christianity and Islam - have been corrupted?

The original scriptures have not been corrupted, it is what people believe those scriptures mean that has been corrupted. That is what I mean when I say the religions have been corrupted.

And you don't have assumptions about God? That's a laugh.

I have no assumptions about God, I have beliefs about God according to scriptures.

Then you are both wrong, because your ideas require a contradiction.

No, we are both right. There is no contradiction.

 

[Trailblazer]

If the outcome is set, then we are just actors following a script written by someone else. We can not decide for ourselves what path we take, since we are bound to take the path determined by the scriptwriter.

You said that God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice. #514
Now you are saying that we are we are bound to take the path determined by the scriptwriter.
Those two positions are contradictory.

The outcome is not SET, the outcome is KNOWN by God. God's knowledge doesn't force you to make choices and act out the script. You act out the script that God knows you will act out but there is no connection between what God knows you will do and what you choose to do.

You decide the path you will take and God knows what that path will be because God is all-knowing.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If the outcome is set, then we are just actors following a script..

It's incredible how so many people are misled by this concept.

I can't be bothered with it any more.
You follow your "script" .. and I'll follow mine.

 

[Tiberius]

No, not any more than God's knowledge of what color shirt you will wear forces you to wear any particular color shirt.

And yet the lawyer runs. So obviously it is NOT my knowledge that is forcing the lawyer to run.

Now, since we have established that knowledge that a thing will happen is NOT what causes that thing to happen, will you PLEASE drop your strawman argument that I'm claiming God's foreknowledge is what is forcing things to happen?

 

[Tiberius]

When you say that you will wear the red shirt on Friday because God knows you will wear the red shirt on Friday, you are saying that God's knowledge that you will wear the red shirt on Friday is making you wear the red shirt on Friday.

See how ridiculous that reasoning is?

Yes, that reasoning is ridiculous.

WHICH IS WHY I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT.
​

Now, would you DROP this strawman? If you use it again I will report you. I have told you countless times that it is a strawman, I have told you countless times that I am NOT claiming God's foreknowledge is what is making me or anyone else do things.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Now, would you DROP this strawman? If you use it again I will report you..

But you have claimed that. You just told me that we are following a script..
Who writes that script?

 

[Tiberius]

Either you understand God according to the Bible (Christian) or you do not believe in God (atheist).
You cannot have it both ways.
The Bible God gave us free will to use and the Bible God is also omniscient.

A person doesn't need to be a Christian in order to be well versed in what Christians believe.

The original scriptures have not been corrupted, it is what people believe those scriptures mean that has been corrupted. That is what I mean when I say the religions have been corrupted.

Oh, if only those original scriptures still existed for people to read and see how the faiths have been corrupted.

Oh, wait, they are!

Funny, you'd think that if people had corrupted the faith, the first thing they would do is get rid of anything which would show the original, non-corrupted form. And yet the Bible is still out there.

I have no assumptions about God, I have beliefs about God according to scriptures.

Same thing.

No, we are both right. There is no contradiction.

Yes there is.

• A is right, B is wrong
• B is right, A is wrong.

These two can not both be correct at the same time.

 

[Tiberius]

You said that God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice. #514
Now you are saying that we are we are bound to take the path determined by the scriptwriter.
Those two positions are contradictory.

Only if God is the script writer.

The outcome is not SET, the outcome is KNOWN by God. God's knowledge doesn't force you to make choices and act out the script. You act out the script that God knows you will act out but there is no connection between what God knows you will do and what you choose to do.

The lawyer character in Jurassic Park acts out the script that I know he will act out but there is no connection between what I know he will do and what he chooses to do.

Once again I demonstrate why I am NOT saying that God's foreknowledge is what makes us do things.

You decide the path you will take and God knows what that path will be because God is all-knowing.

If God knows what path I will take ahead of time, then it's not a choice because only one path is open.

A choice by definition requires more than one option.

 

[Trailblazer]

And yet the lawyer runs. So obviously it is NOT my knowledge that is forcing the lawyer to run.

Then what causes the lawyer to run?

 

[Trailblazer]

Now, since we have established that knowledge that a thing will happen is NOT what causes that thing to happen....

You explain to me what causes that thing to happen.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have told you countless times that I am NOT claiming God's foreknowledge is what is making me or anyone else do things.

Then what is it that is making you or anyone else do things?
What causes you to act?

 

[Trailblazer]

A person doesn't need to be a Christian in order to be well versed in what Christians believe.

No, but you cannot commandeer Christian beliefs when it suits your fancy and then claim to be an atheist.

Oh, if only those original scriptures still existed for people to read and see how the faiths have been corrupted.

Oh, wait, they are!

Funny, you'd think that if people had corrupted the faith, the first thing they would do is get rid of anything which would show the original, non-corrupted form. And yet the Bible is still out there.

Sorry, this issue of corruption is too complicated for me to explain here. It would require a new thread.

A is right, B is wrong
B is right, A is wrong.

These two can not both be correct at the same time.

I was talking about me and @muhammad_isa both being right.
There is no contradiction between free will and God's omniscience.