I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[KWED]

It's incredible how so many people are misled by this concept.

Sometimes, if everyone else is "wrong" and you are the only one who is "right", you may need to reassess your position.

I can't be bothered with it any more.
You follow your "script" .. and I'll follow mine.

You even referred to Allah writing a "script" in an earlier post! "The pen is lifted and the ink is dry".
It's interesting that you actually make arguments against your own position, but see them as validation!
'Tis a mighty powerful beast, cognitive dissonance.

 

[KWED]

Why not? I don't murder or steal, I try and treat others how I'd like to be treated? I guess the first 2 are technically stolen from Judaism but the 3rd is definitely Christian. What's the problem with using the useful stuff and dropping the nonsense?

Social prohibitions on things like murder and theft long predate Judaism. The innate attributes of empathy, altruism - the Golden Rule seem to be evolutionary traits that were vital in the formation of the first stable communities, tens of thousands of years ago.

 

[Sheldon]

I say why doesn't God protect children from abusers. The standard excuse for [insert favourite God here] is free will. That's the general answer, the specific answer for this topic is you haven't demonstrated to me how not having the ability to change the course of my life and having free will makes any sense.

I'd go farther, would any human think a rapist or child abuser's free will took priority over stopping the rape of a child? There is no objective evidence for this of course, but even if such a deity existed, and thought that, then it would be an immoral sadist, and I'd want no part of it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That means that god has recorded future events (50,000 years before creation) and those events cannot be changed.
Which means we do not have free will in the matter of those events.
QED.

Wrong conclusion..
The past is a series of events that "can't be changed", but that does not lead you to believe that they were determined by mindless puppets.

It is PURELY a perception that because those series of events are called the future, you make these illogical conclusions.
Einstein showed that there is no real difference between the past and the future as "now" is only a perception.

Oh .. nevermind .. if you want to see the past and present as definitive, then you will.

 

[Sheldon]

It's incredible how so many people are misled by this concept.

To be fair religious indoctrination can be very hard to fight against.

I can't be bothered with it any more.

Quod erat demonstrandum

I can't be bothered with it any more.
You follow your "script" .. and I'll follow mine.

According to you we're all following your deity's script? Joking aside you are the one whose argument is literally following a script(ure) here. The only thing my arguments here are bound by is logic, a handicap you neither want nor understand.

 

[Sheldon]

But you have claimed that. You just told me that we are following a script..
Who writes that script?

You know very well he's talking about the consequences of your claim, and not expressing a belief he holds, you tried to peddle the same sophistry yesterday with me. Resorting to that kind of dishonesty speaks volumes.

 

[John53]

Social prohibitions on things like murder and theft long predate Judaism. The innate attributes of empathy, altruism - the Golden Rule seem to be evolutionary traits that were vital in the formation of the first stable communities, tens of thousands of years ago.

Yep, you're right. I was trying to fit it in with her statement (which it turns out I misunderstood) that atheists shouldn't agree with anything from Christianity.

 

[Sheldon]

KWED said: ↑
That means that god has recorded future events (50,000 years before creation) and those events cannot be changed.
Which means we do not have free will in the matter of those events.
QED.

Wrong conclusion..

Ah flat denial, not very compelling.

The past is a series of events that "can't be changed", but that does not lead you to believe that they were determined by mindless puppets.

Correct, because our reality is that we live in a temporal universe, with a linear timescale, and that is where we make our "choices" such as they are.

It is PURELY a perception that because those series of events are called the future, you make these illogical conclusions.

A perception of reality yes, as opposed to an unevidenced fantasy that would turn us into automatons, puppets to an omniscient deity.

Einstein showed that there is no real difference between the past and the future as "now" is only a perception.

Einstein's work doesn't remotely evidence any deity anywhere, and you know it, as you tried to peddle this one before, and I challenged you to demonstrate evidence for this deity hiding away on another timeframe, that both Einstein who did not believe in a personal god and was disparaging about Abrahamic religions, and the entire scientific world, seem to have missed?

Off you go...

 

[muhammad_isa]

There is no contradiction between free will and God's omniscience.

You are absolutely right.
It is nonsense to claim that the highways are full of people who are not really driving .. not responsible for any dangerous driving etc.

Not only is it nonsense, but it will never be taken as a testimony in court, that a person who swears on the Bible or Qur'an can't use such a fallacious argument in court.

 

[John53]

Quod erat demonstrandum

I had to google it

 

[John53]

Hmmmm... having a few problems lol

Edit: I'm listening to MrIntelligentDesign on the Non Seq show, my brain has melted.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

No, we are discussing omnipotence, not predicting the likely outcome of an event.

muhammed isa has claimed that a deity knows exactly what we will do, before we do it.

Ok.
So whats the problem with that?

Are you discussing as in a planned birthday party for someone?
Surprise!!!

Or are you discussing a deity having knowledge and people having experience?

 

[Sheldon]

It is a choice because you will choose between more than one option.

There was more than one option but you made the choice that God knew you would make.

You made the choice you wanted to make, which is why you made that choice.
God knew what that choice would be but God's knowledge did not take away your free will to choose.

Only after you made that choice was there no other option, because the choice had been made.

Lets try a hypothetical:

I have two choices A and B. According to what you and @muhammed isa have claimed, a deity exists, and knows exactly which one I will ultimately choose, and before I perceive making the choice. Also I cannot choose other than what the deity knows I will choose. If the deity knows I will choose A, then I cannot choose B, and of course the reverse is true, if the deity knows I will choose B, then I cannot choose A. Thus the choice I perceive would be an illusion, and any concept of free will would be negated.

NB This is not what I believe, it is the logical inference of your and muhammed isa's claim.

 

[Sheldon]

No, but you cannot commandeer Christian beliefs when it suits your fancy and then claim to be an atheist.

There is only one belief an atheist cannot hold, all else is a personal choice. So this is very wrong.

 

[Sheldon]

Ok.
So whats the problem with that?

Are you discussing as in a planned birthday party for someone?
Surprise!!!

Or are you discussing a deity having knowledge and people having experience?

There is no problem, it is a debate exploring the logical consequences of the theistic belief in omniscience for free will. If you read a few of the recent posts you will see what is being discussed.

 

[Sheldon]

It is nonsense to claim that the highways are full of people who are not really driving .. not responsible for any dangerous driving etc.

It is the logical consequence of your belief and claim, not any atheist here. Not one atheist believes this to be the case. You seem to struggle with this rather simple fact. Atheists are explaining the rational consequences of your claim, they don't share that belief at all, so you're calling your own beliefs nonsense here?

 

[Sheldon]

I had to google it

Here' another useful one.

Quod grātīs asseritur, grātīs negātur

 

[John53]

Here' another useful one.

Quod grātīs asseritur, grātīs negātur

Very apt

 

[muhammad_isa]

It is the logical consequence of your belief and claim..

No .. it is not.
It is your projection of my beliefs .. your opinion.
You do not believe in God.
You do not believe that it is possible to know the future .. full stop.

My opinion is that we have free-will, and your hypotheticals are flawed and meaningless.
No court of law will accept your opinions as valid.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I have two choices A and B. According to what you and @muhammed isa have claimed, a deity exists, and knows exactly which one I will ultimately choose, and before I perceive making the choice. Also I cannot choose other than what the deity knows I will choose. If the deity knows I will choose A, then I cannot choose B, and of course the reverse is true, if the deity knows I will choose B, then I cannot choose A. Thus the choice I perceive would be an illusion, and any concept of free will would be negated.

Having a choice of A or B would still have an effect even if the choice was predetermined.
You would have the experience of choosing.

Pick a card. Any card.