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I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
If God is fair and just, and God loves everyone, why do some people have it so easy whereas other people have such difficult lives? I know the religious apologists have answers but I do not accept those answers. I want to know why even though I know I will never know why. :(

I know that a wide range of variety can come from mixing a couple of things together at different ratios.
Like hot and cold water being added together in different amounts would become a unique temperature.

Thats how you can make something one of a kind.
If only hot water is added then variety is impossible.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I'd go farther, would any human think a rapist or child abuser's free will took priority over stopping the rape of a child? There is no objective evidence for this of course, but even if such a deity existed, and thought that, then it would be an immoral sadist, and I'd want no part of it.
Indeed. Any policemen who stood by and watched while a child was raped and murdered saying "I can't stop it 'cuz free will", would be sacked and possibly prosecuted. Civilised society would condemn and ostracise them, not respect and revere them. It simply defies logic and human decency to even present the argument in the first place.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Wrong conclusion..
The past is a series of events that "can't be changed", but that does not lead you to believe that they were determined by mindless puppets.
Erm, the past has happened, which is why it can't be changed.
The future is yet to happen. It isn't fixed if no one fixes it.

It is PURELY a perception that because those series of events are called the future, you make these illogical conclusions.
How is it "illogical" that the past has happened but the future is yet to happen?

Einstein showed that there is no real difference between the past and the future as "now" is only a perception.
No he didn't. He postulated it as an hypothesis. Not the same thing as "showed", by a long measure. (Not being a scientist, you wouldn't understand this.) Also, Einstein did not suggest that the future is fixed, as in every event has one value that must be fulfilled.
But anyway, can you explain how Einstein's ideas about loss of simultaneity means that we have free will in the context of a universe where events are divinely predestined?
(TBH, I have a feeling you have seen a mention of the idea on an apologist website and are trying to invoke it without understanding it).
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
You are absolutely right.
It is nonsense to claim that the highways are full of people who are not really driving .. not responsible for any dangerous driving etc.

Not only is it nonsense, but it will never be taken as a testimony in court, that a person who swears on the Bible or Qur'an can't use such a fallacious argument in court. :D
:tearsofjoy: Between the two of you, you could assemble quite a straw army.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
No .. it is not.
It is your projection of my beliefs .. your opinion.

The rationale has been amply demonstrated to show an inerrant contradiction. You even asserted it yourself when insisting we have "free will", but then asserting that faced (for example) with two choices, we could only choose the one that a deity knows we will choose. Ipso facto the other choice would be an illusion to us.

My opinion is that we have free-will, and your hypotheticals are flawed and meaningless.

Oh no, another of your bare subjective denials. :rolleyes:

No court of law will accept your opinions as valid.

Ah, you're going to end with a straw man fallacy, and a sketchy vague and pointless non sequitur at that. This is not a cogent argument.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
..and one that is widely accepted by those who appreciate the implications of relativity.
Can you explain why Einstein and the entire scientific world have missed the part where his work remotely evidences a deity hiding in another time dimension? Only I am very sure Einstein never claimed this, nor has any physicist since, why is that I wonder?

Here's a tip for you, if you're going to try and use a sly appeal to authority fallacy, it might be better to choose one who actually shares your belief. The desire to align the ideas of a genius like Einstein with your own beliefs is perhaps irresistible, but seriously you should try to resist it, as it is a massive own goal.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
If God is fair and just, and God loves everyone, why do some people have it so easy whereas other people have such difficult lives? I know the religious apologists have answers but I do not accept those answers. I want to know why even though I know I will never know why. :(
Have you heard of Occam's razor, only there is a very simple answer, that requires no evidenced assumptions be made here.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Can you explain why Einstein and the entire scientific world have missed the part where his work remotely evidences a deity hiding in another time dimension?
My point has nothing to do with whether a diety exists or whether Einstein was a deist or theist.

..so stop making red herrings. Stick to the point.
The theory of relativity implies a deterministic universe, regardless of whether the Abrahamic G-d exists.

It describes one in which 'time' is not absolute, and shows that it is relative to a physical frame of reference.

This, in itself, does not prove the existence of an omniscient G-d, but it DOES bring into focus the notion of something that happens at a later time cannot have already happened [in another time frame] is only a perception .. a perception of reality that you assure us is the only rational position to hold.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
My point has nothing to do with whether a diety exists or whether Einstein was a deist or theist.

Of course it does, what a preposterous falsehood, your entire point was a defence of the existence of an omniscient deity, and a denial of the existence of any contradiction between that claim and perceived free will.

The theory of relativity implies a deterministic universe, regardless of whether the Abrahamic G-d exists.

Hilarious, you are at both claiming it is irrelevant to your claim that your belief in an omniscient deity does not negate free will, and here implying it supports it, or have you in fact introduced a red herring, since you cannot have it both ways. :rolleyes: Best of all it doesn't support your position, and you seem unaware of it. :eek::confused:o_O

It describes one in which 'time' is not absolute, and shows that it is relative to a physical frame of reference.

And this has what to do with your assertion that a deity exists that knows what we will do before we do, and your denial of the logical inference that this would negate free will? So which is it, a red herring, or support for your earlier argument? Like your other arguments you seem to want to make mutually exclusive claims.

This, in itself, does not prove the existence of an omniscient G-d,

It doesn't demonstrate anything about any deity, that is axiomatic.

but it DOES bring into focus the notion of something that happens at a later time cannot have already happened [in another time frame] is only a perception ..

I thought it was red herring?:facepalm:

a perception of reality that you assure us is the only rational position to hold.

No I haven't, another of your very dishonest straw men. You do know that Einstein did not believe we have free will, don't you?:eek::eek::eek:o_O You have relentlessly argued that we do, so this is something of an own goal. :D:rolleyes:

Which is it, do we have free will or not? As I can't keep up with your endless contradictions here?

Also if a deity knows exactly which choice we will make, before we perceive ourselves making it, and we cannot (as you have assured us) choose other than what a deity knows will choose, then the rational inference would negate free will. As Einstein believed of course, but because of relativity, and not because of an omniscient deity. So you're appeal to authority here is actually disproving your own argument, and without the need for any deity or anything supernatural.

I can't wait to see where you will shift the goal posts now. :rolleyes::tearsofjoy:
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
I can't wait to see where you will shift the goal posts now..
You will have to..
I only reply to coherent posts.

I repeat..
"The notion of something that happens at a later time cannot have already happened [in another time frame] is only a perception .. a perception of reality that you assure us is the only rational position to hold."

That is the only point you need to reply to.
Is our perception of "now" an ultimate reality .. or is it just a perception that we hold?
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
You will have to..
I only reply to coherent posts.

:tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:

You introduced Einstein's relativity to support your argument that free will is not negated by an omniscient deity, and didn't know that Einstein did not believe in free will.

Yes, I can see why you might want to run away and regroup. :rolleyes: Fair enough, instead of shifting the goal posts, you're going to take your ball home. :D:cool:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
"We can never understand how god works" (when it suits)
"I know exactly how god works" (when it suits)
No, it is like this...
"We can never understand how god works" (when we don't know, because it was revealed in scripture)
"I know exactly how god works" (when we do know, because it was not revealed in scripture)

Without any scripture all you have is an imaginary god, one you made up in your head.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Ah you've got over the shock of your blunder and have edited your post. :D

I repeat..
"The notion of something that happens at a later time cannot have already happened [in another time frame] is only a perception .. a perception of reality that you assure us is the only rational position to hold."

No, this is still a straw man, as I already said. It also has no relevance, so you seem to be trying to hide behind repeating it.

You introduced Einstein's relativity to support your argument that free will is not negated by an omniscient deity, but were obviously unaware that Einstein did not believe in free will. So are you now claiming we don't have free will? Only you seem to have contradicted yourself again, and now want to pretend your blunder hasn't happened. :D Or do you know better than Einstein what the implications of relativity are? :eek:o_O:D:D
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
The theory of relativity implies a deterministic universe, regardless of whether the Abrahamic G-d exists.
So to be clear, are you now claiming we live in a deterministic universe that negates free will, with or without a deity, based on Einstein's philosophy inferred from relativity, that we do not have free will?

Also how does this help your argument, that a deity knowing exactly what we will do, before we perceive doing it, does not negate free will? Since Einstein believed relativity negated free will.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
My opinion is that we have free-will,
Yes, we have gathered that. Unfortunately under the Islamic god's divine predestination, free will is not possible in respect of events that god has willed and decreed.

and your hypotheticals are flawed and meaningless.
And yet you have been unable to show how. You merely keep asserting your opinion.

No court of law will accept your opinions as valid.
If I could prove that a defendant had no control over the events that let to a crime being committed, then the court would not find them guilty. That is a simple fact of law. Shame your god doesn't work to the same high standards of logic, reason and justice that our legal system does.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Having a choice of A or B would still have an effect even if the choice was predetermined.
You would have the experience of choosing.
But the "experience" would be merely an illusion, like the "choice" made by a character in a book.
 
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KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I know that a wide range of variety can come from mixing a couple of things together at different ratios.
Like hot and cold water being added together in different amounts would become a unique temperature.

Thats how you can make something one of a kind.
If only hot water is added then variety is impossible.
Nonsense.
There are many different temperatures that qualify as "hot" or "cold".
Also, the concept of "hot" and "cold" is highly subjective.
 
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