I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[KWED]

..and one that is widely accepted by those who appreciate the implications of relativity.

Ok, as you are the expert in relativity, explain how Einstein's hypothesis means that infallible omniscience does not affect free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which we can't change so I can't for the life of me tell the difference between your description and mine. I accept we can learn and do things better but that's just part of our unchangeable script.

It does not matter what is in the script is because you cannot SEE the script, only God knows what is in the script. Why would it matter what God knows you will do? It does not affect what you will choose to do. You will chose to do what you want to do and God knows what that will be. You can never know what the future will be until it happens.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying no matter what we do it is the script that was known even before I was born.

The script is known because God is all-knowing, so God knows what is in everyone's script.
But how does God's knowledge affect you? Lots of people know things you do not know but what they knows does not affect you, so why would what God knows affect you?

And it can't be changed.

No, it can't be changed but so what? What God knows does not affect you. You live your life as you see fit and God knows how it will play out. God's foreknowledge is not the cause of things, it is a perfection of God.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.... Some Answered Questions, p. 138

Yet I can't change the script.

So what? Since you do not know what the script is why would that matter?
God knows how everything is going to turn out but that does not affect you and what you do.

It's also possible to do that without a God.

Of course.

She's fine and it was an uneventful trip, actual better than usual because the road is closed further north so very little traffic. She has to have her anal glands emptied every 6 weeks or she gets infections.

That's good to hear that it was nothing serious.

 

[KWED]

My point has nothing to do with whether a diety exists or whether Einstein was a deist or theist.

..so stop making red herrings. Stick to the point.
The theory of relativity implies a deterministic universe, regardless of whether the Abrahamic G-d exists.

It describes one in which 'time' is not absolute, and shows that it is relative to a physical frame of reference.

This, in itself, does not prove the existence of an omniscient G-d, but it DOES bring into focus the notion of something that happens at a later time cannot have already happened [in another time frame] is only a perception .. a perception of reality that you assure us is the only rational position to hold.

But your claim that god exists outside of spacetime is not covered by Einstein's idea because it relates solely to things within out own universe.

Also, it doesn't mean that every event that has ever happened or will ever happen can be observed simultaneously. It merely suggests that two observers might perceive whether something has just happened or is about to happen differently, depending on their position.

So on both counts, your argument fails - which probably explains why you have been avoiding explaining how Einstein's theory affects the free will paradox.

 

[KWED]

I repeat..
"The notion of something that happens at a later time cannot have already happened [in another time frame] is only a perception .. a perception of reality that you assure us is the only rational position to hold."

That is the only point you need to reply to.
Is our perception of "now" an ultimate reality .. or is it just a perception that we hold?

Ah, I think I see your problem here. Einstein wasn't suggesting that an event can happen before it has happened. It was that two different observers' perception of when a single event was happening could differ. The event only happens once.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't see how scripture makes any difference to be honest.

Prior to the Baha'i writings and the Quran, I don't think Baha'is believe any of the other Scriptures were totally true and accurate. And even with the Quran I'm sure they have to make some "creative" interpretations for it to make sense. Like when it says the young Jesus make clay birds and made them come to life. And if anything in the Quran supports the belief in Jinn and Satan, I'm sure Baha'is make those verses symbolic. So, by the time we're done "adjusting" the other Scriptures, for Baha'is, the only truly reliable Scriptures are theirs. And lots of people have pointed out errors and flaws in them and all other Scriptures. I guess that means what we have is an imaginary God,

 

[muhammad_isa]

So are you now claiming we don't have free will?

What do you think?

 

[Trailblazer]

The script.

And, just to be clear, I had no part in developing the script for Jurassic Park.

The movie script causes the lawyer to run but in real life there is no script that causes humans to do anything.
To compare a movie script to what happens in real life is the fallacy of false equivalence.

 

[Trailblazer]

No idea. You are the one who says that the future is set in stone, but not by God's knowledge.

I never said that the future is set in stone. Only an irrevocable decree is set in stone
Remember the impending fate and the irrevocable fate?
Below is a refresher. Please read it and try to understand it:

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it..”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

 

[Sheldon]

You introduced Einstein's relativity to support your argument that free will is not negated by an omniscient deity, but were obviously unaware that Einstein did not believe in free will. So are you now claiming we don't have free will? Only you seem to have contradicted yourself again, and now want to pretend your blunder hasn't happened. Or do you know better than Einstein what the implications of relativity are?

What do you think?

I think I asked a question and you have again ignored it. So you should clarify your position, since you cited Einstein's theory of relativity as supporting your arguments, that an omniscient deity does not negate free will. However as a consequence of relativity, Einstein did not believe in free will. So what do you know about relativity that Einstein did not, since you believe it supports one conclusion, and he another?

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not need to be a Christian in order to say, "Christians believe X, which is not compatible with your religion."

I mean, you've been perfectly happy to commandeer Christian beliefs when you aren't a Christian.

Fair enough.

If you start one, I'll join the discussion.

I might, if I ever have time away from this thread!

 

[Trailblazer]

At no point did I ever say, "God's knowledge of the future is what causes me to perform the actions he has foreseen I will do."

Then what causes you to do those things?

 

[Trailblazer]

If God knows what I will do, then there is only one option - the path he has seen that I will follow.

You choose between A and B.
God knows you will choose A.
You choose A.
If God's foreknowledge of A doesn't force you to make a choice, what causes you to choose A?

@Trailblazer , since you gave this post a like, can I assume you are going to drop your cries of "God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice" argument? Because I've told you many times that I have not claimed that God's foreknowledge does so. #514 Tiberius

 

[John53]

It does not matter what is in the script is because you cannot SEE the script, only God knows what is in the script. Why would it matter what God knows you will do? It does not affect what you will choose to do. You will chose to do what you want to do and God knows what that will be. You can never know what the future will be until it happens.

The script is known because God is all-knowing, so God knows what is in everyone's script.
But how does God's knowledge affect you? Lots of people know things you do not know but what they knows does not affect you, so why would what God knows affect you?

No, it can't be changed but so what? What God knows does not affect you. You live your life as you see fit and God knows how it will play out. God's foreknowledge is not the cause of things, it is a perfection of God.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.... Some Answered Questions, p. 138

So what? Since you do not know what the script is why would that matter?
God knows how everything is going to turn out but that does not affect you and what you do.

Of course.

That's good to hear that it was nothing serious.

It doesn't matter if I see the script or not. I can't change it. It was decided long before I even existed. The whole idea is nonsensical and obviously created in the mind of humans to cover the flaws in the concept of god. Anyway, that's just my opinion, if your religion brings comfort to you then I guess that's a good thing, I prefer reality no matter how bitter a pill it is to swallow.

 

[John53]

I don't see how scripture makes any difference to be honest.

The difference is obvious. One is a God you made up, the other is a God someone else made up.

 

[Sheldon]

You choose between A and B.
God knows you will choose A.
You choose A.
If God's foreknowledge of A doesn't force you to make a choice,

So you're saying I can choose B, and god can be wrong?

This is going around and around not because theists are being stubborn, or because atheists are being stubborn, but because the belief contains an obvious rational contradiction. That's why we bounce from one contradictory claim back to the other, and repeat...

 

[muhammad_isa]

I prefer reality..

What you consider to be reality is your perception of reality.

As far as you are concerned, the space-time continuum [ universe ]
is the only thing that can possibly be real .. hence what you call reality.

..It was decided long before I even existed..

How? Who decided it?
How do you know that you won't find yourself in a different "reality" at some point? Do you know for sure that you won't, or is it an assumption?

 

[John53]

What you consider to be reality is your perception of reality.

As far as you are concerned, the space-time continuum [ universe ]
is the only thing that can possibly be real .. hence what you call reality.


How? Who decided it?
How do you know that you won't find yourself in a different "reality" at some point? Do you know for sure that you won't, or is it an assumption?

I'm pretty sure I'm not in an episode of Star Trek.

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't matter if I see the script or not. I can't change it. It was decided long before I even existed. The whole idea is nonsensical and obviously created in the mind of humans to cover the flaws in the concept of god. Anyway, that's just my opinion, if your religion brings comfort to you then I guess that's a good thing, I prefer reality no matter how bitter a pill it is to swallow.

It was not decided before you existed, it was known before you existed. It is only decided when you decided.

The whole idea that God would be responsible for what humans are responsible for is nonsensical and obviously created in the mind of atheists blame God for everything they do not like in the world. God is the ultimate fall guy. I prefer reality, that humans are responsible for their own actions, no matter how bitter a pill it is to swallow.

Anyway, that's just my opinion, if your atheism brings comfort to you then I guess that's a good thing.

 

[John53]

It was not decided before you existed, it was known before you existed. It is only decided when you decided.

The whole idea that God would be responsible for what humans are responsible for is nonsensical and obviously created in the mind of atheists blame God for everything they do not like in the world. God is the ultimate fall guy. I prefer reality, that humans are responsible for their own actions, no matter how bitter a pill it is to swallow.

Anyway, that's just my opinion, if your atheism brings comfort to you then I guess that's a good thing.

I don't blame God for anything. You keep making the same mistake over and over. I don't believe the existence of any God. Not sure why that's so hard to understand. I blame humans. Would it help if I put "I don't believe this or any other God exists" in brackets every time I type the word god?

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't blame God for anything. You keep making the same mistake over and over. I don't believe the existence of any God. Not sure why that's so hard to understand. I blame humans. Would it help if I put "I don't believe this or any other God exists" in brackets every time I type the word god?

When you invoke God by wondering why God would not do something, like protecting children from abusers, I view that as blaming God for not protecting children from abusers.

John53 said: I say why doesn't God protect children from abusers. The standard excuse for [insert favourite God here] is free will. That's the general answer,

Basically you are saying that if God existed God should be protecting children from abusers instead of expecting humans to choose to protect children from abusers with their free will.

I do not understand how that is blaming humans.