I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[John53]

In my opinion an Almighty God wouldn't need excuses because he wouldn't EVER make any mistakes. God is not only Omnipotent, God is Infallible. An Infallible God cannot make mistakes.

Then logic must tell you that a perfect god doesn't exist because this supposed creation of his is far from perfect.

Atheists who think that God makes mistakes believe that know more than God about what God should do but that is logically impossible since God is All-Knowing and no human is All-Knowing.

Once again atheists lack belief of any gods so they don't believe god makes mistakes. It's not that hard to understand. I don't think god makes mistakes, I don't think god is less than perfect. I think god is a man made concept that doesn't exist in reality.

 

[CG Didymus]

You're correct, in my opinion an almighty god wouldn't need excuses because he wouldn't make such a ridiculously flawed system. However followers of a flawed man made concept would need excuses to justify the lack of evidence for what they wish to be true.

Most everybody here can see that the world is screwed up. Some blame people and say God can't make mistakes. Some of us say, if there is a God, we are an example of his biggest mistake. So no, there is no such thing as an infallible God. It is people who invent a God that say that their God is infallible... and all-loving and all that goody good stuff. No evidence. No proof other than words on a page that say that God is infallible. It feels good to believe. It gives them meaning in their life. It gives them a hope in a better place after they die, but still this world is flawed. People are flawed. Religions are flawed. And those flawed religions tell us about a perfect God? And, of course, each religion doesn't see themselves as flawed.

 

[John53]

Most everybody here can see that the world is screwed up. Some blame people and say God can't make mistakes. Some of us say, if there is a God, we are an example of his biggest mistake. So no, there is no such thing as an infallible God. It is people who invent a God that say that their God is infallible... and all-loving and all that goody good stuff. No evidence. No proof other than words on a page that say that God is infallible. It feels good to believe. It gives them meaning in their life. It gives them a hope in a better place after they die, but still this world is flawed. People are flawed. Religions are flawed. And those flawed religions tell us about a perfect God? And, of course, each religion doesn't see themselves as flawed.

Said much more eloquently than I ever could, thank you.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..all that goody good stuff..

..you are beginning to sound like you prefer mischief.
That is the root of the problems that you describe.

Mankind cannot achieve success by turning away from righteousness and G-d.
They must fall. The "goody-good" person acknowledges that.

 

[Tiberius]

The movie script causes the lawyer to run but in real life there is no script that causes humans to do anything.
To compare a movie script to what happens in real life is the fallacy of false equivalence.

If there is no script, then how does God know what is going to happen before it happens?

(You do realise that I am using "the script" as a metaphor for whatever source of information about the future that God is using to know what is going to happen before it happens, right?)

 

[Tiberius]

I never said that the future is set in stone. Only an irrevocable decree is set in stone
Remember the impending fate and the irrevocable fate?
Below is a refresher. Please read it and try to understand it:

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it..”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

If the future is not set in Stone, how can God know EXACTLY what will happen?

 

[Tiberius]

Then what causes you to do those things?

IF we live in a universe in which there is an omniscient God who knows what we will do before we do it and our lives are determined ahead of time so that something other than free will is what causes us to perform the actions we perform... No idea.

As I've already said, several times.

 

[Tiberius]

You choose between A and B.
God knows you will choose A.
You choose A.

No.

God knows that when I face the choice, I will choose A.
I face a choice between A and B. Since God knows that I am 100% for sure definitely going to choose A, B is not actually a choice, since I can not choose it (since God KNOWS I will choose A instead).
I carry out A, believing it was a choice, but it was not a choice because there was no other option that I could actually choose.

If God's foreknowledge of A doesn't force you to make a choice, what causes you to choose A?

As I've said, no idea.

It is not required that I know what causes us to do what we do in this hypothetical of a world where the future is known ahead of time and we can't do anything differently.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If there is no script, then how does God know what is going to happen before it happens?

That is the whole point.
It is all about our perception of time. Our perception of "now" and the future that "hasn't happened yet".

The fact that you see "now" as an absolute phenomena that cannot be violated, means that you deem it impossible to know the future.
Of course, it IS impossible for us to see something that is hidden from us.

It is not hidden from God, as from His frame of reference, IT HAS ALL HAPPENED .. that is how God knows.
It is as if the universe is in a time warp bottle. You don't believe that, of course .. but I do.
..and that is why you think the way that you do.

 

[KWED]

The answer is simple.
G-d is not a person. He [ neither male or female ] has created human beings to test them, individually and collectively, and each and every one of us must die and return to Him.

God cannot "test" us because he has infallible omniscience. He knows exactly how everyone will respond to every event (not least because he willed and decreed it that way).
The "life is a test" argument is entirely incoherent.

Our lives here on earth are as "a blink of an eye" compared to eternity, and those that suffer at the hands of others will eventually be compensated .. as will those who perpetrate evil be punished.

So you believe that the police should simply let crimes happen and then compensate the victims, rather than attempting to stop them.

G-d could have made a world without evil, but we would not then have the responsibility that we do.

Ignoring the fact that god's predestination/infallible omniscience means we cannot be held responsible anyway - this is utter nonsense.
In a world without evil, people could still have free will and bear responsibility, they just couldn't choose to do anything evil, because it wouldn't even be a thing.

If G-d intervened at every bad thing that happens, this reality would no longer serve the same purpose.

But god does intervene. What do you think dua is all about? Although to be fair, Allah does seem more interested in helping people pass exams than saving innocent children from a painful death. But hey, we all have our priorities.

G-d knows better than we do. If we think that we can know better than One who is capable of creating and maintaining this universe, then there is not much left more to say.

Apart from the obvious question begging, how do you know god knows better? What evidence do you have for that? Most of his actions seem weird at best, often downright psychotic. So apart from religious dogma telling you "Allah knows best", what evidence do you have to support that claim?

If we don't believe in a "higher power". this can only mean that we think that we are the highest authority. What a joke that is.

Why is it a joke? Is it just you question begging again?
Remember that either god exists or he doesn't. If he doesn't (which you must accept is a possibility), then there is no "highest authority" other than what society determines there is. Assuming that to be true, what is wrong with that? (Note: your reply cannot include "but without god" or similar. You need to just explain what would be so fundamentally wrong with humans managing there own affairs).

(Another Note: I predict that you will simply ignore most of my post, cherry-pick one element, and then straw man it.)

 

[KWED]

..then why ask the question if you already have an answer?
..perhaps it is not really a question .. just an accusation.

Well, you believe in said god, who you claim is omniscient, omnipotent, most just, merciful, beneficent, etc. You are also aware of all the suffering and death experienced by innocent children, by there million.
So... it is your responsibility to resolve this paradox. And we have seen that your "explanation" falls some way short.

 

[KWED]

There is a big test being presented to you now... Is Baha'u'llah the new messenger from God? You have to make that choice. God is not going to make it for you. Is God testing you to see if you'll by true to the Islamic religion? Or is God testing you to see if you will recognize that the Baha'i Faith is the truth and the new religion of God for today? Either way... that's a much more important question to answer than arguing with Atheists.

Indeed. Many Muslims assume there will not be another messenger, with another revised message (as god has already sent many times), and so reject any ne claimant to be god's messenger by default.
However, they seem to forget that Allah can do anything and is not bound by anything, so if he decides to send another messenger, he can and will. The expectations and assumptions of Muslims mean nothing to him.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why is it a joke?

..just look at the state of the world .. mankind is not good with power and authority.
They are corrupt.

 

[KWED]

.They see that the oppression of mankind to each other cannot be changed by putting their faith in ideologies

Islam is an ideology.

only Divine guidance and a quest for righteousness.
Those who G-d blesses with faith, will often be persecuted, but eventually they cannot lose.

Most religions make the same claim, with just as much sincerity.
So, how do you know that you are right and they are wrong.
And more importantly, how do you know your answer to that question is right and theirs is wrong?

The oppression and suffering will not persist forever. That is not the will of G-d. He sees all.

Oh, so god can and will prevent all that suffering. He wants it to end, despite you earlier claiming that god didn't want to end it.
So why wait?

 

[KWED]

..just look at the state of the world .. mankind is not good with power and authority.
They are corrupt.

Remember that the post you are replying to here contained six, individual, specific points/questions that required a response.
Also remember that I finished it with...
"I predict that you will simply ignore most of my post, cherry-pick one element, and then straw man it."
Note that you ignored most of it and responded to one extract from one larger point, without actually addressing the point.
I know the future, so am I god?

Anywho, to answer you...
You entirely missed the point. You are complaining about the state of a world where there is a higher power (according to you).
If you look more closely, the more a country believes in your "highest authority", the more corrupt it is. Countries that embrace secular liberal democracy tend to rank higher in terms of fairness, health, tolerance, equality, security, etc.
Belief in your "higher power, highest authority" usually seems to lead to more corruption, intolerance, conflict, etc.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..You are complaining about the state of a world where there is a higher power (according to you).

God has given the responsibility to us, but evil will not triumph in the long run.
As you know well, the believer believes in Divine justice.
We all must die and return to God, from whence we came.

 

[KWED]

God has given the responsibility to us, but evil will not triumph in the long run.
As you know well, the believer believes in Divine justice.
We all must die and return to God, from whence we came.

So having this "higher power, highest authority" has no effect on life in this world - so your claim about human authorities being corrupt was meaningless.
Whether god exists or not, whether people believe in god or not it has no effect on any suffering or conflict or injustice in this world.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..your claim about human authorities being corrupt was meaningless..

No it isn't.
We can't always expect just treatment from humans, and that is a fact.
I rely on G-d .. in this life, and the next.

If faith made no difference, then my path would be identical to yours.
..which it is not.

 

[Sheldon]

The real answer is even simpler. Your logic defying god is not real, it's a man made concept.

If it were real it would be a sadistic barbaric monster. A deity that creates a test involving raping children, that it could easily prevent by will alone, and does nothing.

What does it say when one imagines a deity whose morality falls so far below the standard we'd expect from any half decent human. (that's rhetorical)

 

[Sheldon]

..then why ask the question if you already have an answer?
..perhaps it is not really a question .. just an accusation.

That is how one explores ideas other than your own. If your answer had been more compelling he'd be obliged to change his view in accordance see.

The simplest explanations that make the least unevidenced assumptions or involve the least entities are according to Occam's razor, more likely to be correct. (I'm paraphrasing)