I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[Sheldon]

A better question is why should my God protect children from abusers even

Wouldn't you if you could? Why would anyone imagine a deity with less rectitude, than we'd expect from any half decent human?

if my God is capable of preventing the abuse?

Are you saying your deity isn't omnipotent?

 

[Sheldon]

CG Didymus said: ↑
..all the pain, suffering and injustice is always a good reason to doubt their creation..

..thats is what satan wants us to do .. to lose hope and turn to hedonistic pursuits that will destroy us.

Smart cookie that Satan, also a proper noun. Also I have been an atheist for almost 4 decades, I haven't lost hope at all, and my hedonistic pursuits take their roll, but they haven't destroyed me.

 

[Sheldon]

Those with sure knowledge don't lose their faith.

No true Scotsman fallacy, again.

 

[Sheldon]

They see that the oppression of mankind to each other cannot be changed by putting their faith in ideologies .. only Divine guidance and a quest for righteousness.
Those who G-d blesses with faith, will often be persecuted, but eventually they cannot lose. The oppression and suffering will not persist forever. That is not the will of G-d. He sees all.

Just give up trying to improve things, and hope it's better when we die? Nah, sorry that doesn't work for me.

 

[KWED]

No it isn't.
We can't always expect just treatment from humans, and that is a fact.
I rely on G-d .. in this life, and the next.

My original question was about a world without a "higher power authority". I asked what would be wrong with such a world. You replied that it would be awful because humans are corrupt.
But you are also saying that god's authority only comes into play after we die, so it makes no difference to life in this world.

If faith made no difference, then my path would be identical to yours.
..which it is not.

It makes no difference to your life in this world. In fact, the evidence shows that you are less likely to benefit from higher education, employment, welfare, etc.

Also, ten different believers can all have different paths in life, as can ten atheists - so not sure what you point was supposed to be.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then logic must tell you that a perfect god doesn't exist because this supposed creation of his is far from perfect.

God created humans good but humans have free will so after they were created they were able to choose between good and evil and some people choose evil. God is not responsible for human choices.

Once again atheists lack belief of any gods so they don't believe god makes mistakes. It's not that hard to understand. I don't think god makes mistakes, I don't think god is less than perfect. I think god is a man made concept that doesn't exist in reality.

Then I suggest you don't talk about God as if He exists because it can be misleading.

 

[Trailblazer]

If there is no script, then how does God know what is going to happen before it happens?

(You do realise that I am using "the script" as a metaphor for whatever source of information about the future that God is using to know what is going to happen before it happens, right?)

God does not need a written script like a movie producer needs. God does not need a source of information to know what is going to happen before it happens, God just knows all of that because God is all-knowing by His very nature.

A script is just a metaphor as you said, and it represents the Tablet of Fate. The Tablet of Fate is the Book of Life (see quote below), which contains everything that will ever happen to all of us in this life. There is no actual book, the Tablet of Fate just symbolizes what is contained in the Mind of God.

“O thou who art the fruit of My Tree and the leaf thereof! On thee be My glory and My mercy. Let not thine heart grieve over what hath befallen thee. Wert thou to scan the pages of the Book of Life, thou wouldst, most certainly, discover that which would dissipate thy sorrows and dissolve thine anguish.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 132-133

 

[Trailblazer]

If the future is not set in Stone, how can God know EXACTLY what will happen?

As I just said in the previous post, God knows everything because Omniscience is an essential part of God's nature, just as Omnipotence is a essential part of God's nature.

So God knows everything we have ever done and everything we will ever do in the future.

God knows what we will choose to do with our free will and when we will choose it but God's knowledge has no effect upon what we choose.

 

[Trailblazer]

IF we live in a universe in which there is an omniscient God who knows what we will do before we do it and our lives are determined ahead of time so that something other than free will is what causes us to perform the actions we perform... No idea.

As I've already said, several times.

You cannot have actions without a cause. That is illogical.
God's foreknowledge does not cause anything to happen.

We live in a universe in which there is an Omniscient God who knows what we will do before we do it but THAT DOES NOT MEAN that our lives are determined ahead of time since what God knows does not determine what we will choose to do.

FREE WILL is what causes us to perform the actions we perform...

As I've already said, several times.

 

[Trailblazer]

No.

God knows that when I face the choice, I will choose A.
I face a choice between A and B. Since God knows that I am 100% for sure definitely going to choose A, B is not actually a choice, since I can not choose it (since God KNOWS I will choose A instead).
I carry out A, believing it was a choice, but it was not a choice because there was no other option that I could actually choose.

God knows that when you face the choice, you will choose A.
The reason God knows that is BECAUSE GOD IS ALL-KNOWING.

You face a choice between A and B. God knows that you are 100% for sure definitely going to choose A, but B was another choice you could have made. IF you had chosen B, God would have known that you were going to choose B.

You carry out A because that was YOUR choice, but you could have carried out B if you had wanted to. If you had carried out B, God would have known you were going to carry out B.

As I've said, no idea.

It is not required that I know what causes us to do what we do in this hypothetical of a world where the future is known ahead of time and we can't do anything differently.

That is completely illogical. Just because God knows the future that does not mean we cannot do anything differently. Whatever we choose to do will be what God had always known we would choose to do. It is really that simple, it is not rocket science.

 

[John53]

God created humans good but humans have free will so after they were created they were able to choose between good and evil and some people choose evil. God is not responsible for human choices.

Standard excuse to cover the flaw of god being a man made concept. (Normally I'd just say "that to me is an excuse" but if I did you would then making a sweeping statement about all atheists or say I was blaming god even though you know full well I'm an atheist).

Then I suggest you don't talk about God as if He exists because it can be misleading.

Or maybe you could learn it's an internet discussion, you could learn what a hypothetical is. I talk to other people about V8 Supercar racing, I don't need to tell them in each post that I don't own or drive one I'm just an interested observer, I discuss migratory shore birds without the need to tell the other people I'm not in Siberia watching the behaviour every post.

I'd be interested to know why you keep doing it. It seems to be common amongst theists but no other groups. Everyone can be mistaken but after being told once or twice they usually get it but not so much with many theists.

 

[John53]

That is how one explores ideas other than your own. If your answer had been more compelling he'd be obliged to change his view in accordance see.

I don't understand why some people have a hard time understanding that especially since we're on a discussion forum!

 

[Trailblazer]

Standard excuse to cover the flaw of god being a man made concept.

Okay, if you are not blaming God then what do you mean by the above statement? Please explain.

 

[John53]

Okay, if you are not blaming God then what do you mean by the above statement? Please explain.

I'm saying it's a concept created by humans not an actual god. It should not be necessary (turns out I'm wrong about that as it looks like it is necessary) for me to say "hypothetically speaking why doesn't your God (that I have a lack of belief in) protect hypothetical children from hypothetical abusers" on a discussion forum!!!!! You know I'm an atheist and lack belief in any gods so why do I need to point it out in every post?

I'm sure your next question will be "why do you bother asking about God if you don't believe". Because it's a topic I enjoy discussing, this a forum designed for such discussions, the weather has been miserable for months and this helps fill in time, I enjoy talking to you, I might learn something, your answers might compel me to change my mind, I'm not really one for socialising and this is a way of having an adult discussion in way that's comfortable for me.

 

[Sheldon]

God does not need a written script

Unevidenced claim 1.

God does not need a source of information to know what is going to happen before it happens

Unevidenced claim 2.

God just knows all of that

Unevidenced claim 3.

God is all-knowing by His very nature.

Unevidenced claim 4.

You also claimed, more than once, that it is impossible to know god. So one wonders how you can reel of claims to knowledge about it, unabashed like this?

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm saying it's a concept created by humans not an actual god.

Next question: Just for the sake of argument, if you believed that God existed would you expect God to protect children from abusers?

I'm sure your next question will be "why do you bother asking about God if you don't believe". Because it's a topic I enjoy discussing, this a forum designed for such discussions, the weather has been miserable for months and this helps fill in time, I enjoy talking to you, I might learn something, your answers might compel me to change my mind, I'm not really one for socialising and this is a way of having an adult discussion in way that's comfortable for me.

No, that will not be my next question. I fully understand why you are on this forum. My reason is not exactly the same because I am not looking to change my mind but I'm not really one for socializing and this is a way of having an adult discussion in way that's comfortable for me. I also enjoy talking to you. I generally prefer talking to atheists rather than believers and I also post on another forum that is owned by an atheist and is mostly atheists. I like all the atheists on this forum but I finally had to put two of them on Ignore. I hardly ever do that but I finally realized that they were not really interested in an adult discussion.

So it is fall in your location and it is spring here. So your summer weather is miserable?

 

[John53]

Next question: Just for the sake of argument, if you believed that God existed would you expect God to protect children from abusers?

If I were God I would, I'd put the free will of the child not to be abused over the free will of the abuser.

No, that will not be my next question. I fully understand why you are on this forum. My reason is not exactly the same because I am not looking to change my mind but I'm not really one for socializing and this is a way of having an adult discussion in way that's comfortable for me. I also enjoy talking to you. I generally prefer talking to atheists rather than believers and I also post on another forum that is owned by an atheist and is mostly atheists. I like all the atheists on this forum but I finally had to put two of them on Ignore. I hardly ever do that but I finally realized that they were not really interested in an adult discussion.

I have people I've put on self controlled ignore, I just don't read their posts.

So it is fall in your location and it is spring here. So your summer weather is miserable?

It's been terrible, yesterday we had 160mm of rain in 5 hours, that's about 6.2 inches. Today gale force winds are predicted so trees will be dropping all over the place because the ground is so saturated. We've had a lot of rain since before Xmas causing 3 major floods. The last one about a month ago there were people trapped on the roof of their houses for 72 hours and it would have been longer if civilians in private boats hadn't gone out rescuing, the emergency services couldn't cope. That was north of my me, fortunately my area has only had minor flooding, yesterday I couldn't get out because some of the roads were covered but I was able to get to a grocery store and stock up this morning. I guess it's better than drought and fires but it's still depressing.

Here's part of a poem written by Dorothea Mackellar in the early 1900's which sums it up...


I love a sunburnt country,
A land of sweeping plains,
Of ragged mountain ranges,
Of droughts and flooding rains.
I love her far horizons,
I love her jewel-sea,
Her beauty and her terror –
The wide brown land for me!

 

[Trailblazer]

If I were God I would, I'd put the free will of the child not to be abused over the free will of the abuser.

I understand, you just have a lot of compassion. I also have a lot of compassion for people who suffer, but I don't single out children as special. I understand what that is about because I spent many years in therapy. My parents might have loved me but I was emotionally abandoned so I abandoned my "inner child." Because of that I could not have children of my own because I knew I could not love them as they would deserve to be loved, since I never felt loved by my parents...

So much for the psychotherapy. I have spent 40 years in therapy off and on and I have an MA in Counseling Psychology so psychology is my 'other hat' and a hat I have worn a lot longer than my religion hat. I also have a MA in Geography so I am very interested in other countries and their weather. So it is, people and places. I have never really done much with religion, it was not my thing, but I believe in God.

I have people I've put on self controlled ignore, I just don't read their posts.

I tried that with these two but I kept getting so many posts that it clogged up my list of Alerts so I could not get to the people I wanted to answer. Also, it upset me having to read all that negative stuff, which was usually about ME and not about the subject at hand. I gave those people a fair chance but they were not going to change.

It's been terrible, yesterday we had 160mm of rain in 5 hours, that's about 6.2 inches. Today gale force winds are predicted so trees will be dropping all over the place because the ground is so saturated. We've had a lot of rain since before Xmas causing 3 major floods. The last one about a month ago there were people trapped on the roof of their houses for 72 hours and it would have been longer if civilians in private boats hadn't gone out rescuing, the emergency services couldn't cope. That was north of my me, fortunately my area has only had minor flooding, yesterday I couldn't get out because some of the roads were covered but I was able to get to a grocery store and stock up this morning. I guess it's better than drought and fires but it's still depressing.

I had no idea the weather was like that where you are! Heavy wind and rain is our usual late fall and early winter weather but the weather here has been unusual. It rained cats and dogs in October and November and then it snowed about 10 inches once around Christmastime and after that it was so cold it did not melt as it usually does. Then it has hardly rained at all since December and it has been mostly cloudy although we also had a lot of sunny days in January and February.

When I used to go on vacations I wold go to the Oregon coast in February and early March when the weather was cloudy and stormy. To be honest, I like wind and rain, except for not being able to go out to the grocery store since I cannot see very well when it is raining and I worry about my garage getting flooded. I never get depressed in winter because of the clouds and rain but by the time fall comes around I am tired of the sunny in summer weather.

However, I have to admit I have been enjoying the partly to mostly cloudy 50-60 F weather because all the birds and squirrels are out and about, and I love to watch them. The cats also like to look out of the windows and watch them. It is also much nicer walking when there is no rain and looking up at the cloudy/partly sunny sky.

Here's part of a poem written by Dorothea Mackellar in the early 1900's which sums it up...

I love a sunburnt country,
A land of sweeping plains,
Of ragged mountain ranges,
Of droughts and flooding rains.
I love her far horizons,
I love her jewel-sea,
Her beauty and her terror –
The wide brown land for me!

Thanks, that is a nice poem. Is that about Australia? Is that where you were born and raised?

 

[John53]

I understand, you just have a lot of compassion. I also have a lot of compassion for people who suffer, but I don't single out children as special. I understand what that is about because I spent many years in therapy. My parents might have loved me but I was emotionally abandoned so I abandoned my "inner child." Because of that I could not have children of my own because I knew I could not love them as they would deserve to be loved, since I never felt loved by my parents...

I used children as an example because to me it's a massive problem for the existence of a loving God.

So much for the psychotherapy. I have spent 40 years in therapy off and on and I have an MA in Counseling Psychology so psychology is my 'other hat' and a hat I have worn a lot longer than my religion hat. I also have a MA in Geography so I am very interested in other countries and their weather. So it is, people and places. I have never really done much with religion, it was not my thing, but I believe in God.

I tried that with these two but I kept getting so many posts that it clogged up my list of Alerts so I could not get to the people I wanted to answer. Also, it upset me having to read all that negative stuff, which was usually about ME and not about the subject at hand. I gave those people a fair chance but they were not going to change.

I had no idea the weather was like that where you are! Heavy wind and rain is our usual late fall and early winter weather but the weather here has been unusual. It rained cats and dogs in October and November and then it snowed about 10 inches once around Christmastime and after that it was so cold it did not melt as it usually does. Then it has hardly rained at all since December and it has been mostly cloudy although we also had a lot of sunny days in January and February.

When I used to go on vacations I wold go to the Oregon coast in February and early March when the weather was cloudy and stormy. To be honest, I like wind and rain, except for not being able to go out to the grocery store since I cannot see very well when it is raining and I worry about my garage getting flooded. I never get depressed in winter because of the clouds and rain but by the time fall comes around I am tired of the sunny in summer weather.

However, I have to admit I have been enjoying the partly to mostly cloudy 50-60 F weather because all the birds and squirrels are out and about, and I love to watch them. The cats also like to look out of the windows and watch them. It is also much nicer walking when there is no rain and looking up at the cloudy/partly sunny sky.

Thanks, that is a nice poem. Is that about Australia? Is that where you were born and raised?

She was born in Australia but wrote the poem in England at 19 because she was homesick. Here's a link to the full poem.

My Country - Dorothea Mackellar

 

[Tiberius]

That is the whole point.
It is all about our perception of time. Our perception of "now" and the future that "hasn't happened yet".

The fact that you see "now" as an absolute phenomena that cannot be violated, means that you deem it impossible to know the future.
Of course, it IS impossible for us to see something that is hidden from us.

It is not hidden from God, as from His frame of reference, IT HAS ALL HAPPENED .. that is how God knows.
It is as if the universe is in a time warp bottle. You don't believe that, of course .. but I do.
..and that is why you think the way that you do.

Utterly irrelevant.

We are discussing things from OUR point of view, not God's.

If what you say is true, then God can know what I am going to do on Friday and be able to provide that information to you on the previous Monday. And if he does that, then SOMETHING will force me to do what he told you I would do, and if something is forcing me, then I don't have free will.