I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[Trailblazer]

So you think that if I don't know what the cause is, then it's the same as me saying there must be NO cause?

Once again, it seems you have failed Logic 101.

I never said that you said that there is no cause. I asked you what the cause is.

Trailblazer said: You said something other than free will causes things and then you said you have no idea what that something is.

Trailblazer said: Then what causes you to do those things?

As I've told you, I DON'T KNOW.

Are you just routinely ignoring everything I say now?

I do not remember saying you don't know but that is neither here nor there.
.Fine, you don't know. Now I know that so I won't ask you again.

I'll respond to your claims about God knowing and all that in your response to my post 944.

I answered it below.

 

[Trailblazer]

If I'm going to lose again, you've got nothing to worry about.

Your refusal to answer my question only serves to show that you know you don't actually have an answer.

Okay, I decided to answer it. See post below.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's Monday morning. You're walking down the street, doing whatever it is you do on a Monday morning, when God speaks to you. He tells you, "On Friday, Tiberius is going to win the lotto after playing the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. He will be the only winner."

That is within the realm of what God can do, right?

Just a yes or no please.

No, it is not within the realm of what God can do because God can never speak to any human and be understood by that human.

We covered this many times before. ONLY the Messengers of God can ever understand God.

“Immeasurably exalted is He above the strivings of human mind to grasp His Essence, or of human tongue to describe His mystery. No tie of direct intercourse can ever bind Him to the things He hath created, nor can the most abstruse and most remote allusions of His creatures do justice to His being. Through His world-pervading Will He hath brought into being all created things. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His own exalted and indivisible Essence, and will everlastingly continue to remain concealed in His inaccessible majesty and glory. All that is in heaven and all that is in the earth have come to exist at His bidding, and by His Will all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the realm of being. How can, therefore, the creature which the Word of God hath fashioned comprehend the nature of Him Who is the Ancient of Days?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 318

 

[Trailblazer]

And yet God does jack when other humans CAN'T save them.

Grow up. God is NOT a man who can come and rescue humans. It is not within God's nature nor is it God's job.
I suggest you read this post because he said it better than I ever could: #882 muhammad_isa

God doesn't exist.

The child says: You are not my mommy because you won't give me some ice cream.
Tibs says: God doesn't exist because God won't rescue children like Superman.

Do you think I care if 'you believe' that God exists?

I find your attitude that it's okay to torture kids because they can cope with it better and God rewards them in Heaven anyway to be offensive and disgusting.

God does not torture any kids. Only humans torture kids. Thus humans are responsible for torturing kids.
God is not responsible for torturing kids because God does not torture kids.
Logic 101.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: God's knowledge does not cause us to do anything.
Tiberius said: I NEVER SAID IT DOES. HOW MANY TIMES MUST I TELL YOU THIS?

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING EVERY TIME YOU SAY THAT YOU CAN ONLY DO WHAT GOD KNOWS YOU WILL DO AND YOU HAVE NO CHOICE. I AM SORRY YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THIS.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think anyone deserves to suffer (except maybe whoever started rap music), I just chose the abused child example because to me it absolutely rules out the existence of a loving God. I could have chosen a terrible disease such as alzheimer's.

Guess what? I don't think anyone deserves to suffer either. I suffered all throughout my childhood and I have suffered for most of my adult life, so by all rights I should have ditched God a long, long time ago. I hated God's guts from almost 10 years and I would ditched Him if I could have disbelieved in His existence, but I couldn't so I didn't. Instead I tried to make peace with God and put my ego aside and realize I don't know more than God knows because that is logically impossible.

“This test is just as thou hast written: it removeth the rust of egotism from the mirror of the heart until the Sun of Truth may shine therein. For, no veil is greater than egotism and no matter how thin that covering may be, yet it will finally veil man entirely and prevent him from receiving a portion from the eternal bounty.”
Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 371-372

 

[Tiberius]

I never said that you said that there is no cause. I asked you what the cause is.

Trailblazer said: You said something other than free will causes things and then you said you have no idea what that something is.

Trailblazer said: Then what causes you to do those things?

Yes you did.

TB said: "You cannot have actions without a cause. That is illogical." Post 929.

There is no reason for you to say this unless you think I was saying something about there being no cause.

I do not remember saying you don't know but that is neither here nor there.
.Fine, you don't know. Now I know that so I won't ask you again.

I told you HERE, HERE and HERE. (You even specifically replied to that last one, so don't give me any garbage about you not realizing I said it.)

 

[Tiberius]

No, it is not within the realm of what God can do because God can never speak to any human and be understood by that human.

We covered this many times before. ONLY the Messengers of God can ever understand God.

“Immeasurably exalted is He above the strivings of human mind to grasp His Essence, or of human tongue to describe His mystery. No tie of direct intercourse can ever bind Him to the things He hath created, nor can the most abstruse and most remote allusions of His creatures do justice to His being. Through His world-pervading Will He hath brought into being all created things. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His own exalted and indivisible Essence, and will everlastingly continue to remain concealed in His inaccessible majesty and glory. All that is in heaven and all that is in the earth have come to exist at His bidding, and by His Will all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the realm of being. How can, therefore, the creature which the Word of God hath fashioned comprehend the nature of Him Who is the Ancient of Days?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 318

So God is not omnipotent? Are you telling me that he can't even make it so he creates a piece of paper with the message written on it appear at your place? In order to maintain God's omniscience, you must rob him of his omnipotence.

In any case, the messengers are human, are they not? So why do you expect me to believe your claim here? "Oh, Humans can't understand God. Except for the Humans who can understand God." Please tell me you don't actually think that's a good answer.

And finally, the passage you cited specifically says it applies only to THINGS GOD HAS CREATED. Thus it only applies if God is the one who has created the future, in which case what happens is up to him, not me. You've repeatedly said that what happens is MY choice, not God's so that means that this passage does not apply. The future God would be telling you of is NOT one of the "things He hath created."

 

[John53]

Guess what? I don't think anyone deserves to suffer either. I suffered all throughout my childhood and I have suffered for most of my adult life, so by all rights I should have ditched God a long, long time ago. I hated God's guts from almost 10 years and I would ditched Him if I could have disbelieved in His existence, but I couldn't so I didn't. Instead I tried to make peace with God and put my ego aside and realize I don't know more than God knows because that is logically impossible.

“This test is just as thou hast written: it removeth the rust of egotism from the mirror of the heart until the Sun of Truth may shine therein. For, no veil is greater than egotism and no matter how thin that covering may be, yet it will finally veil man entirely and prevent him from receiving a portion from the eternal bounty.”
Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 371-372

I think most people don't like seeing others suffer. I never hated the Christian God I realised it couldn't be true, I did for a time look for a replacement and I remain open to any new evidence I find but so far I feel it's much more likely that there are no gods.

 

[Tiberius]

Grow up. God is NOT a man who can come and rescue humans. It is not within God's nature nor is it God's job.
I suggest you read this post because he said it better than I ever could: #882 muhammad_isa

Excuses, excuses. People of all faiths make up explanations as to why God doesn't appear to actually DO ANYTHING. You are no different.

The child says: You are not my mommy because you won't give me some ice cream.
Tibs says: God doesn't exist because God won't rescue children like Superman.

The two are not the same. Or do you think that not giving a child ice cream is the same sort of deprivation as not saving a child from being raped and murdered?

Do you think I care if 'you believe' that God exists?

I honestly couldn't care what you believe. I'm not here to change your mind, I'm just here to point out that your position has no support and is inconsistent with both itself and reality.

God does not torture any kids. Only humans torture kids. Thus humans are responsible for torturing kids.
God is not responsible for torturing kids because God does not torture kids.
Logic 101.

If action can be taken to prevent harm and the one who can take that action does not take it, and harm results from it, then the one who refused to take the action that would prevent harm is responsible as well.

If you disagree, I expect that you'd be perfectly happy with a driver deciding NOT to apply their breaks if you step out in front of their car.

You'd be hit and badly injured, but hey, there's no fault to the driver. They are not the one who stepped out, they are not the one who didn't look. The driver is not responsible for your injuries because they did not step out in front of the car.

Once again, your argument is lousy.

 

[Tiberius]

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING EVERY TIME YOU SAY THAT YOU CAN ONLY DO WHAT GOD KNOWS YOU WILL DO AND YOU HAVE NO CHOICE. I AM SORRY YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THIS.

Does my knowledge that Spock will die in Star Trek 2 CAUSE Spock to die? Yes or no.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes you did.

TB said: "You cannot have actions without a cause. That is illogical." Post 929.

There is no reason for you to say this unless you think I was saying something about there being no cause.

I told you HERE, HERE and HERE. (You even specifically replied to that last one, so don't give me any garbage about you not realizing I said it.)

I do not CARE what you told me or when you told me. Rehashing posts," yes you did, no I didn't" is playground behavior, childish to the hilt. It is all about EGO - I am right and you are wrong.

No thanks. I have better things to do than look through previous posts to prove I am right.
You can think you are right if you want to, it does not affect me in any way.

 

[Trailblazer]

In any case, the messengers are human, are they not? So why do you expect me to believe your claim here? "Oh, Humans can't understand God. Except for the Humans who can understand God." Please tell me you don't actually think that's a good answer.

Do you think I care if you believe my claim? It is THE answer. No 'ordinary human' can ever understand direct communication from God. Messengers are not ordinary humans, they are BOTH divine and human.

Only God's chosen Messengers can understand God speaking through the Holy Spirit and they can understand God because they have a divine mind. Nobody else has a divine mind so nobody else can understand God directly.

God sends Messengers who act like Mediators between God and man, and since they have a twofold nature, both divine and human, they can understand God and humans and they can relay communication from God back to humans in a form that humans can comprehend.

And finally, the passage you cited specifically says it applies only to THINGS GOD HAS CREATED. Thus it only applies if God is the one who has created the future, in which case what happens is up to him, not me. You've repeatedly said that what happens is MY choice, not God's so that means that this passage does not apply. The future God would be telling you of is NOT one of the "things He hath created."

That passage does not apply to God's foreknowledge. That passage is only in reference to the fact that no ordinary human can ever understand direct communication from God (no tie of direct intercourse can ever bind Him to the things He hath created) and the fact that God has forever been veiled from man and will everlastingly continue to remain concealed in His inaccessible majesty and glory.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think most people don't like seeing others suffer. I never hated the Christian God I realised it couldn't be true, I did for a time look for a replacement and I remain open to any new evidence I find but so far I feel it's much more likely that there are no gods.

What caused you to realize that the Christian God cannot be true?

 

[Trailblazer]

Excuses, excuses. People of all faiths make up explanations as to why God doesn't appear to actually DO ANYTHING. You are no different.

God does do something, God sends Messengers, and God also rules and maintains the whole universe. Just because you do not SEE God doing anything that does not mean God is not doing anything.

The two are not the same. Or do you think that not giving a child ice cream is the same sort of deprivation as not saving a child from being raped and murdered?

I guess you missed the point of my comparison. Just like the child who wants ice cream from mommy you are acting like a child who wants God to DO what you want God to DO, or else you say God does not exist.

I honestly couldn't care what you believe. I'm not here to change your mind, I'm just here to point out that your position has no support and is inconsistent with both itself and reality.

I honestly couldn't care what you believe. I'm not here to change your mind. More than once you have said that you just want to know the truth about God (or no God), whatever that truth is. I don't think that this is really the case, even if it once was. It seems to me that winning an argument and showing me that I am wrong so you can be right is more important to you than knowing the truth about God or Baha'u'llah. So be it. It is no skin off my nose.

If action can be taken to prevent harm and the one who can take that action does not take it, and harm results from it, then the one who refused to take the action that would prevent harm is responsible as well.

God is not a man who can "take action" in this world. To compare God with a human is the fallacy of false equivalence, a fallacy commonly committed by atheists.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
False equivalence - Wikipedia

It borders on idiotic to think that God can take action in this world, but what the hell, you don't know anything about God, except from the Bible, so it is no small wonder you think God can act like a man since the Bible is anthropomorphizes God, as if God were a man.

 

[Trailblazer]

Does my knowledge that Spock will die in Star Trek 2 CAUSE Spock to die? Yes or no.

No, the script causes Spock to die.

 

[John53]

What caused you to realize that the Christian God cannot be true?

I read the bible.

 

[Tiberius]

I do not CARE what you told me or when you told me. Rehashing posts," yes you did, no I didn't" is playground behavior, childish to the hilt. It is all about EGO - I am right and you are wrong.

Ah, you mean the way you did in THIS post?

This is the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it?

No thanks. I have better things to do than look through previous posts to prove I am right.
You can think you are right if you want to, it does not affect me in any way.

If you want to participate in a discussion with someone, then it's your responsibility to keep track of that discussion. If you can't be bothered to do that, then don't join the discussion.

Of course, if you think that not keeping track of the discussion you are having with someone is acceptable, then I should start doing it with you.

 

[Tiberius]

Do you think I care if you believe my claim? It is THE answer. No 'ordinary human' can ever understand direct communication from God. Messengers are not ordinary humans, they are BOTH divine and human.

Only God's chosen Messengers can understand God speaking through the Holy Spirit and they can understand God because they have a divine mind. Nobody else has a divine mind so nobody else can understand God directly.

God sends Messengers who act like Mediators between God and man, and since they have a twofold nature, both divine and human, they can understand God and humans and they can relay communication from God back to humans in a form that humans can comprehend.

And once again you are trying to shift the goalposts - a logical fallacy.

You said, "God can never speak to any human and be understood by that human." Emphasis YOURS.

You said ANY HUMAN, and now you are trying to make an exception. You are merely trying to get out of the corner you have painted yourself into. If your position had any merit, you would not have been painted into that corner in the first place.

That passage does not apply to God's foreknowledge. That passage is only in reference to the fact that no ordinary human can ever understand direct communication from God (no tie of direct intercourse can ever bind Him to the things He hath created) and the fact that God has forever been veiled from man and will everlastingly continue to remain concealed in His inaccessible majesty and glory.

If it does not apply to God's foreknowledge, WHY DID YOU BRING IT UP IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE?

Once again you are scrambling to escape the corner you painted yourself into.

 

[Tiberius]

God does do something, God sends Messengers, and God also rules and maintains the whole universe. Just because you do not SEE God doing anything that does not mean God is not doing anything.

Except you can't actually provide even the slightest shred of support for that claim, can you?

I guess you missed the point of my comparison. Just like the child who wants ice cream from mommy you are acting like a child who wants God to DO what you want God to DO, or else you say God does not exist.

No, I'm just pointing out that the way God is described and the way God is apparently acting seem to be at odds.

We apparently have an infinitely loving God who is all knowing and all powerful, but yet refuses to step in and stop children from being raped and murdered.

I honestly couldn't care what you believe. I'm not here to change your mind.

That's good, because if you were trying to change my mind, you've been doing a lousy job of it.

More than once you have said that you just want to know the truth about God (or no God), whatever that truth is. I don't think that this is really the case, even if it once was. It seems to me that winning an argument and showing me that I am wrong so you can be right is more important to you than knowing the truth about God or Baha'u'llah. So be it. It is no skin off my nose.

No, I am interested in finding out the truth. That does NOT, however, mean that I am just going to mindlessly accept anything someone tells me. If someone tells me what they purport to be the truth, I'm going to put it to the test, which is exactly what I have done with everything you have said. If what the person says really is the truth, then it will be able to pass such examination. And if it can not pass, then I have every reason to believe that it's not the truth at all.

God is not a man who can "take action" in this world. To compare God with a human is the fallacy of false equivalence, a fallacy commonly committed by atheists.

Except I never said that God was a man. And you are apparently claiming God is impotent, not omnipotent.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
False equivalence - Wikipedia

Oh look, another passive aggressive definition.

It borders on idiotic to think that God can take action in this world, but what the hell, you don't know anything about God, except from the Bible, so it is no small wonder you think God can act like a man since the Bible is anthropomorphizes God, as if God were a man.

So you are saying that God is completely powerless in this world?

REALLY?

REALLY?????