I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[Tiberius]

No, the script causes Spock to die.

So then you can understand that knowledge that something is going to happen DOES NOT cause that thing to happen!

Why then do you keep using the strawman I believe that God's knowledge of the future is what causes me to do what he has foreseen?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I have told you numerous times that God's foreknowledge does not cause us to do anything.

Of course it doesn't. It is a pointless, fallacious argument that will not be accepted in any court of law.

When I explain how G-d knows what we will do, he says it is irrelevant .. because he doesn't believe it.
As far as he's concerned, it is only possible to know our future, if G-d writes that future. That is his belief that is based on the belief that "it has not happened yet" is actual reality, and any other claim is false.

 

[Tiberius]

Of course it doesn't. It is a pointless, fallacious argument that will not be accepted in any court of law.

When I explain how G-d knows what we will do, he says it is irrelevant .. because he doesn't believe it.
As far as he's concerned, it is only possible to know our future, if G-d writes that future. That is his belief that is based on the belief that "it has not happened yet" is actual reality, and any other claim is false.

And look at how rude you are, talking about me in the third person as though I'm not right here. This would have been more appropriate as a private message, doncha think?

I say it is irrelevant because it is logically contradictory. My belief in it is irrelevant.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And look at how rude you are, talking about me in the third person as though I'm not right here. This would have been more appropriate as a private message, doncha think?

I say it is irrelevant because it is logically contradictory. My belief in it is irrelevant.

It is not logically contradictory, unless you think it impossible for God to be able to know the future by some means .. and that God doesn't know due to the fact "He wrote it Himself".

That is the true logical conclusion. Your problem with free-will is a projection of YOUR thinking it impossible for God to know, unless He wrote it.

 

[Sheldon]

If Superman was the only one there, he would stop the rape. If I were the only one there, I would stop it. If God were the only one there, he would say, you go ahead and do your raping, and I will punish you later. What exactly is childish about me and Superman in that situation? Would it be better if we acted like God?

*Thanks Tracie Harris.

First time I have seen Tracie Harris cited as the source, and I feel guilty now, as I have paraphrased that many times and not given a citation of her as the ordinal source. What's the atheist equivalent of ten hail Mary's?

 

[Sheldon]

It is not logically contradictory, unless you think it impossible for God to be able to know the future by some means .. and that God doesn't know due to the fact "He wrote it Himself".

It is a logical contradiction, since you have asserted we must make the one choice a deity has always known we will choose, and cannot choose otherwise. Ipso fact this would negate any other choice, and any notion of free will would be negated.

 

[Sheldon]

Of course it doesn't. It is a pointless, fallacious argument that will not be accepted in any court of law.

Which fallacy are you claiming he used, and could you quote him using it please.

When I explain how G-d knows what we will do, he says it is irrelevant .. because he doesn't believe it.

Obviously, because as i have explained to you multiple times, he is just deducing a logical inference from your belief, he does not share it. He and others are examine the logical consequence of the magic you believe, they do not believe magic exists.

As far as he's concerned, it is only possible to know our future, if G-d writes that future.

Not true, you are misrepresenting him, as you have done me, and in the same fashion.

That is his belief that is based on the belief that "it has not happened yet" is actual reality, and any other claim is false.

Are you saying the reality we observe does involve linear time inside a temporal universe? Really?

“The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”
― Omar Khayyám

 

[ppp]

First time I have seen Tracie Harris cited as the source, and I feel guilty now, as I have paraphrased that many times and not given a citation of her as the ordinal source.

She is probably okay with it.

What's the atheist equivalent of ten hail Mary's?

You have to commit all the sins that you would be unable to commit as a believer.
IOW, nothing.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It is a logical contradiction, since you have asserted we must make the one choice a deity has always known we will choose, and cannot choose otherwise. Ipso fact this would negate any other choice, and any notion of free will would be negated.

No .. that is your assertion.

 

[Trailblazer]

I read the bible.

The Bible, the primary reason for atheists.
Thank God I never read the Bible.

 

[Trailblazer]

No .. that is your assertion.

Sheldon said: It is a logical contradiction, since you have asserted we must make the one choice a deity has always known we will choose, and cannot choose otherwise. Ipso fact this would negate any other choice, and any notion of free will would be negated.

It is not a logical contradiction.
WE CAN CHOOSE OTHERWISE BECAUSE WE HAVE FREE WILL TO CHOOSE.
If we did not have free will to choose, we could not have chosen anything.

We will make the one choice a deity has always known we will choose, whatever that choice is, but if we had chosen otherwise the deity WOULD HAVE KNOWN that we were going to make that choice instead.

Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

 

[Trailblazer]

If you want to participate in a discussion with someone, then it's your responsibility to keep track of that discussion. If you can't be bothered to do that, then don't join the discussion.

I live in the present day, not in the past.
It is not my responsibility to go back and look at previous posts and argue about what I meant.
Take a look. Nobody does that but you.

 

[Trailblazer]

And once again you are trying to shift the goalposts - a logical fallacy.

You said, "God can never speak to any human and be understood by that human." Emphasis YOURS.

You said ANY HUMAN, and now you are trying to make an exception. You are merely trying to get out of the corner you have painted yourself into. If your position had any merit, you would not have been painted into that corner in the first place.

Why are you quoting what I said BEFORE? Time marches on.
That is not what I said in the post you are responding to.

I said:
No 'ordinary human' can ever understand direct communication from God. Messengers are not ordinary humans, they are BOTH divine and human.

Only God's chosen Messengers can understand God speaking through the Holy Spirit and they can understand God because they have a divine mind. Nobody else has a divine mind so nobody else can understand God directly.

God sends Messengers who act like Mediators between God and man, and since they have a twofold nature, both divine and human, they can understand God and humans and they can relay communication from God back to humans in a form that humans can comprehend.

God can never speak to any ordinary human and be understood by that ordinary human.
Messengers of God are human but they are not ordinary humans because they have a human nature AND a divine nature.

If it does not apply to God's foreknowledge, WHY DID YOU BRING IT UP IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE?

Once again you are scrambling to escape the corner you painted yourself into.

That is not what we were discussing. We were discussing why you could not understand God if God spoke to you and the passage from Baha'u'llah explains why you cannot understand God if God spoke to you.

Tiberius said: It's Monday morning. You're walking down the street, doing whatever it is you do on a Monday morning, when God speaks to you. He tells you, "On Friday, Tiberius is going to win the lotto after playing the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. He will be the only winner."

That is within the realm of what God can do, right?

Trailblazer said: No, it is not within the realm of what God can do because God can never speak to any human and be understood by that human.

We covered this many times before. ONLY the Messengers of God can ever understand God.

 

[John53]

The Bible, the primary reason for atheists.
Thank God I never read the Bible.

Perhaps it should be required reading and we can move past the idea of gods, the world might be a better place, it couldn't be any worse.

 

[Trailblazer]

Except you can't actually provide even the slightest shred of support for that claim, can you?

It is not a claim, it is a belief, and as a belief it can never be PROVEN. Get over it.

No, I'm just pointing out that the way God is described and the way God is apparently acting seem to be at odds.

We apparently have an infinitely loving God who is all knowing and all powerful, but yet refuses to step in and stop children from being raped and murdered.

You STILL don't get it. God is not a human being who can "step in."
Fallacy of false equivalence.

No, I am interested in finding out the truth. That does NOT, however, mean that I am just going to mindlessly accept anything someone tells me. If someone tells me what they purport to be the truth, I'm going to put it to the test, which is exactly what I have done with everything you have said. If what the person says really is the truth, then it will be able to pass such examination. And if it can not pass, then I have every reason to believe that it's not the truth at all.

Just because it does not pass YOUR examination, THAT does not mean it is not the truth.
It means you cannot believe it is the truth, that is ALL it means.

Except I never said that God was a man. And you are apparently claiming God is impotent, not omnipotent.

Do we need to go over what it means for God to be Omnipotent again? Apparently we do, since you made a joke out of what I said in my post about God's Omnipotence on the other thread.

The Omnipotent God does whatever He pleases and does nothing He does not choose to do. This is what atheists do not understand. Atheists think Omnipotent means that God can do anything, which really means God should be doing everything they expect Him to do. They do not understand what Omnipotence really means.

Omnipotence means that God can do anything but God only does what God chooses to do.

An omnipotent God has all power to do anything, but an omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do, not everything He can do.

Below, Baha'u'llah explained what Omnipotence means in a nutshell.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73

Oh look, another passive aggressive definition.

Comparing God to a human and expecting God to do what humans do is a classic case of the fallacy of false equivalence.
If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

So you are saying that God is completely powerless in this world?

REALLY?

REALLY?????

Did I say that? No, I did not say that. I said that God does not 'come on down' to earth and play Superman because God is NOT a man.

God does not intervene in people's free will choices because God gave us all free will to use.
If people choose to do harm to others it is not God's job to stop them.
Everyone knows that except a few atheists who think 'God can do anything' means 'God should do everything' that they think God should do.

If you don't even bother to read what I have already posted twice about what it means for God to be Omnipotent, then it is YOU who is not following the discussion. Rather that responding, you just ignore what I post because you think it is a joke or because you don't agree with it. That is not a discussion.

 

[Trailblazer]

So then you can understand that knowledge that something is going to happen DOES NOT cause that thing to happen!

I always knew that.

Why then do you keep using the strawman I believe that God's knowledge of the future is what causes me to do what he has foreseen?

Because that is what you keep saying. You keep saying that you have to do what God knows you will do and you cannot choose to do anything else, which is the same as saying that God's knowledge of the future is boxing you into a corner and forcing you do to do what God knows you will do.

 

[CG Didymus]

Perhaps it should be required reading and we can move past the idea of gods, the world might be a better place, it couldn't be any worse.

Strange that Baha'is have said that we can only know about God by what his manifestations have told us, yet one of the main books containing information about God, according to some Baha'is, is filled with misinformation.

However, I do think for all the bad it has created, the Bible has been the reason why some people try to be honest, good people. Some because that is what they believe God wants from them. Others because they fear God will punish them. Or maybe a little of both. And I do know some people that were worse off, in a way, once they stopped believing. They started fooling around, taking drugs and drinking. But some of them were fooling around, taking drugs and drinking while they were believing. They were just keeping it secret. So, never mind. Who's to say which is worse? Religion is just like a placebo drug. It doesn't really do anything. But the person thinks it does.

 

[Trailblazer]

Perhaps it should be required reading and we can move past the idea of gods, the world might be a better place, it couldn't be any worse.

I think the Bible belongs on the shelf because it was not written to apply to the age in which we are now living.
Until the Bible is put on get shelf humanity will never be able to move forward into the modern age. Science has moved forward but most religionists are stuck in the past. It is as if they are living in a time warp.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Because that is what you keep saying. You keep saying that you have to do what God knows you will do and you cannot choose to do anything else, which is the same as saying that God's knowledge of the future is boxing you into a corner and forcing you do to do what God knows you will do.

You are absolutely right.
Claiming that a known future means that we are not free to choose, cannot mean anything else.

 

[Tiberius]

It is not logically contradictory, unless you think it impossible for God to be able to know the future by some means .. and that God doesn't know due to the fact "He wrote it Himself".

That is the true logical conclusion. Your problem with free-will is a projection of YOUR thinking it impossible for God to know, unless He wrote it.

It is logically contradictory because free will can not exist in a universe where the future is set in stone.

A person cannot be both free to choose whatever they wish while at the same time being locked into a single course of action.