I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[Tiberius]

God does not need a written script like a movie producer needs. God does not need a source of information to know what is going to happen before it happens, God just knows all of that because God is all-knowing by His very nature.

A script is just a metaphor as you said, and it represents the Tablet of Fate. The Tablet of Fate is the Book of Life (see quote below), which contains everything that will ever happen to all of us in this life. There is no actual book, the Tablet of Fate just symbolizes what is contained in the Mind of God.

“O thou who art the fruit of My Tree and the leaf thereof! On thee be My glory and My mercy. Let not thine heart grieve over what hath befallen thee. Wert thou to scan the pages of the Book of Life, thou wouldst, most certainly, discover that which would dissipate thy sorrows and dissolve thine anguish.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 132-133

Then by your own argument, it IS the knowledge of God that is forcing us to do what God has foreseen.

 

[Tiberius]

As I just said in the previous post, God knows everything because Omniscience is an essential part of God's nature, just as Omnipotence is a essential part of God's nature.

So God knows everything we have ever done and everything we will ever do in the future.

God knows what we will choose to do with our free will and when we will choose it but God's knowledge has no effect upon what we choose.

You are contradicting yourself once again, just as I explained in post 483.

 

[Tiberius]

You cannot have actions without a cause. That is illogical.

Where did I say that under this hypothetical there was no cause? You are using a strawman.

God's foreknowledge does not cause anything to happen.

I've pointed out countless times that this is another strawman argument.

We live in a universe in which there is an Omniscient God who knows what we will do before we do it but THAT DOES NOT MEAN that our lives are determined ahead of time since what God knows does not determine what we will choose to do.

So on Monday God can provide you with information about what I will do on Friday, right?

But since I am GUARANTEED to do what God has foreseen, I don't have any free choice, do I? There is only one option available to me.

FREE WILL

is what causes us to perform the actions we perform...

As I've already said, several times.

Free will is incompatible with a God who knows the future.

 

[Tiberius]

God knows that when you face the choice, you will choose A.
The reason God knows that is BECAUSE GOD IS ALL-KNOWING.

You face a choice between A and B. God knows that you are 100% for sure definitely going to choose A, but B was another choice you could have made. IF you had chosen B, God would have known that you were going to choose B.

You carry out A because that was YOUR choice, but you could have carried out B if you had wanted to. If you had carried out B, God would have known you were going to carry out B.

That is completely illogical. Just because God knows the future that does not mean we cannot do anything differently. Whatever we choose to do will be what God had always known we would choose to do. It is really that simple, it is not rocket science.

So, let's have a little hypothetical situation, okay?

It's Monday morning. You're walking down the street, doing whatever it is you do on a Monday morning, when God speaks to you. He tells you, "On Friday, Tiberius is going to win the lotto after playing the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. He will be the only winner."

That is within the realm of what God can do, right?

Just a yes or no please.

Once you have given me an answer, we'll move on to the next step.

 

[Trailblazer]

I used children as an example because to me it's a massive problem for the existence of a loving God.

Do you think the suffering of children is a bigger problem for the existence of a loving God because children are innocent so they do not deserve to suffer as many adults do? Do you realize that children often have a greater ability to handle suffering than adults do?

Anyhow, according to my beliefs children who have had to suffer through no fault of their own have a great recompense from God in the afterlife.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then by your own argument, it IS the knowledge of God that is forcing us to do what God has foreseen.

No, that is a straw man. I have told you numerous times that God's foreknowledge does not cause us to do anything.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

 

[Trailblazer]

You are contradicting yourself once again, just as I explained in post 483.

Nope.

 

[Tiberius]

Do you think the suffering of children is a bigger problem for the existence of a loving God because children are innocent so they do not deserve to suffer as many adults do? Do you realize that children often have a greater ability to handle suffering than adults do?

Anyhow, according to my beliefs children who have had to suffer through no fault of their own have a great recompense from God in the afterlife.

That's horrific.

Yes, I'm sure God let's little Suzy get repeatedly raped before being brutally murdered because she, as a child, can handle it better than adults.

And how comforting that you can say, "Oh, it's not too bad, because little Suzy is now being compensated by God in Heaven." What, you think God's like, "Hey, Suzy, sorry about the years of violent sexual assaults followed by a painful and terrifying murder. Here's have a house with a nice view over the clouds."

I find your attitude disgusting.

 

[Tiberius]

No, that is a straw man. I have told you numerous times that God's foreknowledge does not cause us to do anything.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

You said that the script which determines what we do is the book of whatever, and it exists inside God's head as his knowledge about what we'd do.

The conclusion flows logically from the premises. If you insist the premises are true yet the conclusion is flawed, then that should indicate to you that your argument is lousy.

 

[Tiberius]

Nope.

yep.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where did I say that under this hypothetical there was no cause? You are using a strawman.

You said something other than free will causes things and then you said you have no idea what that something is.
Trailblazer said: Then what causes you to do those things?

Tiberius said: IF we live in a universe in which there is an omniscient God who knows what we will do before we do it and our lives are determined ahead of time so that something other than free will is what causes us to perform the actions we perform... No idea.

As I've already said, several times.

I've pointed out countless times that this is another strawman argument.

So if God's foreknowledge does not cause anything to happen and free will does not cause anything to happen what causes things to happen?

So on Monday God can provide you with information about what I will do on Friday, right?

But since I am GUARANTEED to do what God has foreseen, I don't have any free choice, do I? There is only one option available to me.

Wrong.
God has always known what you would choose to do on Friday.
On Friday you will choose to do what God has always known you would choose to do...
On Friday you are free to choose A or B.
If you choose A, that will be what God has always known you would choose.
If you choose B, that will be what God has always known you would choose.

Free will is incompatible with a God who knows the future.

Dream on. God's foreknowledge has no bearing upon what we choose to do.
We can chose anything we want to choose and that choice will be what God has always known we would make.
This is not rocket science.

You are contradicting yourself. Before you said that God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice and now you just said that you have no free choice (no free will) because God knows the future:

You said:
"But since I am GUARANTEED to do what God has foreseen, I don't have any free choice, do I?"

" Free will is incompatible with a God who knows the future."

 

[Trailblazer]

So, let's have a little hypothetical situation, okay?

It's Monday morning. You're walking down the street, doing whatever it is you do on a Monday morning, when God speaks to you. He tells you, "On Friday, Tiberius is going to win the lotto after playing the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. He will be the only winner."

That is within the realm of what God can do, right?

Just a yes or no please.

Once you have given me an answer, we'll move on to the next step.

Sorry, I am not playing your little game.
You lost this debate a long time ago. You can never win it playing more games.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's horrific.

Yes, I'm sure God let's little Suzy get repeatedly raped before being brutally murdered because she, as a child, can handle it better than adults.

And how comforting that you can say, "Oh, it's not too bad, because little Suzy is now being compensated by God in Heaven." What, you think God's like, "Hey, Suzy, sorry about the years of violent sexual assaults followed by a painful and terrifying murder. Here's have a house with a nice view over the clouds."

I find your attitude disgusting.

What about big Suzy and big Linda and big Tommy and big Larry... Why don't adults MATTER?
Why should God save EVERYONE when other humans can save them?

I find your attitude very childish. Superman, come and save me!

 

[Trailblazer]

You said that the script which determines what we do is the book of whatever, and it exists inside God's head as his knowledge about what we'd do.

The conclusion flows logically from the premises. If you insist the premises are true yet the conclusion is flawed, then that should indicate to you that your argument is lousy.

God's knowledge does not cause us to do anything.

Humans do what they do because they have free will to choose what to do.
God knows what everyone will do before they do it because God is all-knowing.
This is not rocket science.

 

[ppp]

What about big Suzy and big Linda and big Tommy and big Larry... Why don't adults MATTER?
Why should God save EVERYONE when other humans can save them?

I find your attitude very childish. Superman, come and save me!

If Superman was the only one there, he would stop the rape. If I were the only one there, I would stop it. If God were the only one there, he would say, you go ahead and do your raping, and I will punish you later. What exactly is childish about me and Superman in that situation? Would it be better if we acted like God?

*Thanks Tracie Harris.

 

[Tiberius]

You said something other than free will causes things and then you said you have no idea what that something is.
Trailblazer said: Then what causes you to do those things?

Tiberius said: IF we live in a universe in which there is an omniscient God who knows what we will do before we do it and our lives are determined ahead of time so that something other than free will is what causes us to perform the actions we perform... No idea.

As I've already said, several times.

So you think that if I don't know what the cause is, then it's the same as me saying there must be NO cause?

Once again, it seems you have failed Logic 101.

So if God's foreknowledge does not cause anything to happen and free will does not cause anything to happen what causes things to happen?

As I've told you, I DON'T KNOW.

Are you just routinely ignoring everything I say now?

I'll respond to your claims about God knowing and all that in your response to my post 944.

 

[Tiberius]

Sorry, I am not playing your little game.
You lost this debate a long time ago. You can never win it playing more games.

If I'm going to lose again, you've got nothing to worry about.

Your refusal to answer my question only serves to show that you know you don't actually have an answer.

 

[Tiberius]

What about big Suzy and big Linda and big Tommy and big Larry... Why don't adults MATTER?

You tell me. You're the one who said that children can handle it better.

Why should God save EVERYONE when other humans can save them?

And yet God does jack when other humans CAN'T save them.

God doesn't exist.

I find your attitude very childish. Superman, come and save me!

I find your attitude that it's okay to torture kids because they can cope with it better and God rewards them in Heaven anyway to be offensive and disgusting.

 

[Tiberius]

God's knowledge does not cause us to do anything.

Humans do what they do because they have free will to choose what to do.
God knows what everyone will do before they do it because God is all-knowing.
This is not rocket science.

I NEVER SAID IT DOES. HOW MANY TIMES MUST I TELL YOU THIS?​

 

[John53]

Do you think the suffering of children is a bigger problem for the existence of a loving God because children are innocent so they do not deserve to suffer as many adults do? Do you realize that children often have a greater ability to handle suffering than adults do?

Anyhow, according to my beliefs children who have had to suffer through no fault of their own have a great recompense from God in the afterlife.

I don't think anyone deserves to suffer (except maybe whoever started rap music), I just chose the abused child example because to me it absolutely rules out the existence of a loving God. I could have chosen a terrible disease such as alzheimer's.