I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[Trailblazer]

Once again I demonstrate why I am NOT saying that God's foreknowledge is what makes us do things.

Then what makes us do things?

If God knows what path I will take ahead of time, then it's not a choice because only one path is open.

A choice by definition requires more than one option.

So there you go again, saying that what God knows is forcing you do do what God knows you will do.
Yet in post 514 you said that God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice.
You are contradicting yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God knows what path I will take ahead of time, then it's not a choice because only one path is open.

A choice by definition requires more than one option.

It is a choice because you will choose between more than one option.

There was more than one option but you made the choice that God knew you would make.

You made the choice you wanted to make, which is why you made that choice.
God knew what that choice would be but God's knowledge did not take away your free will to choose.

Only after you made that choice was there no other option, because the choice had been made.

 

[John53]

No, but you cannot commandeer Christian beliefs when it suits your fancy and then claim to be an atheist.

Why not? I don't murder or steal, I try and treat others how I'd like to be treated? I guess the first 2 are technically stolen from Judaism but the 3rd is definitely Christian. What's the problem with using the useful stuff and dropping the nonsense?

 

[Trailblazer]

I was referring to the acting out of a predetermined script part of your theology we've been discussing here. I don't presume to know your entire life or theology.

I do not believe that we act out a predetermined script.
I believe we act out a script that God knows we will act out.
Just because God knows what we will do that does not mean God determined what we will do.
We determine what we will do by choosing it.
God knows what we will choose because God is all-knowing.

I say why doesn't God protect children from abusers. The standard excuse for [insert favourite God here] is free will. That's the general answer,

Why should God do what humans are capable of doing, protecting children from abusers?

the specific answer for this topic is you haven't demonstrated to me how not having the ability to change the course of my life and having free will makes any sense. One answer or the other is an excuse to explain a failure of logic.

You determine the course of your life by making choices and acting upon them.
God knows what those choices will be because God is all-knowing.
God does not determine the choices you will make.

I have done some really stupid stuff and God did not stop me from doing it, but I learned my lesson never to do it again! That is the whole point, that we learn from our mistakes.

Exactly and I'm yet to see sufficient evidence to convince me any of the messengers have the answer.

Evidence for Messengers is a whole different topic but it sounds like you have your hands full right now.

I hope that makes sense, my mind is elsewhere, heavy rain causing flooding around me and I have a 40 minute drive later today to get the dog to the vet. I don't want to go and risk getting cut off but I feel guilty because she's uncomfortable. Free will is causing me distress.

I know EXACTLY what you mean! We lost six of our cats to kidney and heart disease during the two years prior to this year It was almost more than I could bear. I had to make some hard decisions but some of those decisions were made for me. We had 10 cats in but we adopted four cats so now we have eight cats. The cats are my life passion, aside from the two forums I post on.

I hope your dog is feeling better. I have learned a big lesson over the years. It is better to take the cats to the vet if I even suspect something is wrong, rather than ignoring it or sitting around worrying about it. I learned that lesson the hard way.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why not? I don't murder or steal, I try and treat others how I'd like to be treated? I guess the first 2 are technically stolen from Judaism but the 3rd is definitely Christian. What's the problem with using the useful stuff and dropping the nonsense?

That is not what I meant. I did not mean not to live according to Christian teachings, I think we should all do that.
I meant that if one is an atheist they can't also say they believe in the Christian God.

Yes, I think we should take the useful stuff from Christianity and drop what is nonsensical, and for me that is the false doctrines of the Church!

 

[Tiberius]

It's incredible how so many people are misled by this concept.

I can't be bothered with it any more.
You follow your "script" .. and I'll follow mine.

Okay then.

 

[Tiberius]

But you have claimed that. You just told me that we are following a script..
Who writes that script?

So you claim that God is the script writer?

 

[Tiberius]

Then what causes the lawyer to run?

The script.

And, just to be clear, I had no part in developing the script for Jurassic Park.

 

[Tiberius]

You explain to me what causes that thing to happen.

No idea. You are the one who says that the future is set in stone, but not by God's knowledge.

 

[Tiberius]

No, but you cannot commandeer Christian beliefs when it suits your fancy and then claim to be an atheist.

I do not need to be a Christian in order to say, "Christians believe X, which is not compatible with your religion."

I mean, you've been perfectly happy to commandeer Christian beliefs when you aren't a Christian.

Sorry, this issue of corruption is too complicated for me to explain here. It would require a new thread.

If you start one, I'll join the discussion.

I was talking about me and @muhammad_isa both being right.
There is no contradiction between free will and God's omniscience.

Yes there is.

 

[Tiberius]

Then what makes us do things?

So there you go again, saying that what God knows is forcing you do do what God knows you will do.
Yet in post 514 you said that God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice.
You are contradicting yourself.

At no point did I ever say, "God's knowledge of the future is what causes me to perform the actions he has foreseen I will do."

 

[Tiberius]

It is a choice because you will choose between more than one option.

There was more than one option but you made the choice that God knew you would make.

You made the choice you wanted to make, which is why you made that choice.
God knew what that choice would be but God's knowledge did not take away your free will to choose.

Only after you made that choice was there no other option, because the choice had been made.

If God knows what I will do, then there is only one option - the path he has seen that I will follow.

 

[John53]

I do not believe that we act out a predetermined script.
I believe we act out a script that God knows we will act out.

Which we can't change so I can't for the life of me tell the difference between your description and mine. I accept we can learn and do things better but that's just part of our unchangeable script.

Just because God knows what we will do that does not mean God determined what we will do.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying no matter what we do it is the script that was known even before I was born

We determine what we will do by choosing it.
God knows what we will choose because God is all-knowing.

And it can't be changed.

Why should God do what humans are capable of doing, protecting children from abusers?

Common decency.

You determine the course of your life by making choices and acting upon them.
God knows what those choices will be because God is all-knowing.
God does not determine the choices you will make.

Yet I can't change the script.

I have done some really stupid stuff and God did not stop me from doing it, but I learned my lesson never to do it again! That is the whole point, that we learn from our mistakes.

It's also possible to do that without a God.

Evidence for Messengers is a whole different topic but it sounds like you have your hands full right now.

Fair enough

I know EXACTLY what you mean! We lost six of our cats to kidney and heart disease during the two years prior to this year It was almost more than I could bear. I had to make some hard decisions but some of those decisions were made for me. We had 10 cats in but we adopted four cats so now we have eight cats. The cats are my life passion, aside from the two forums I post on.

I hope your dog is feeling better. I have learned a big lesson over the years. It is better to take the cats to the vet if I even suspect something is wrong, rather than ignoring it or sitting around worrying about it. I learned that lesson the hard way.

She's fine and it was an uneventful trip, actual better than usual because the road is closed further north so very little traffic. She has to have her anal glands emptied every 6 weeks or she gets infections.

 

[John53]

That is not what I meant. I did not mean not to live according to Christian teachings, I think we should all do that.
I meant that if one is an atheist they can't also say they believe in the Christian God.

Yes, I think we should take the useful stuff from Christianity and drop what is nonsensical, and for me that is the false doctrines of the Church!

It's a common mistake made by theists in discussions with atheists. We lack belief in Gods but in these types of discussions we have to refer to God, it doesn't mean we think he exists.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

In the OT Satan was Yahwehs agent.

And that is where you are wrong.

In John 8:44, Jesus gives us more details, which debunks that premise.
So the whole crux of this argument, a position which many people hold, is inaccurate.

The text in the title doesn’t support that idea, either. It doesn’t say “I created evil.” As if God was the source of its beginning.
It is not written in past tense.

Really, would any intelligent person hire an enemy, to work against Him?
That is an unreasonable assumption.

The rest of your post, #699, though, was interesting. And so was #700.
Taken together, they were almost “TL: dr”, but I did.

To me, God’s omniscient quality, does not include individuals, as He respects each one’s FreeWill and dignifies their right to privacy.
But He can know, if He chooses, what events will happen and when … one way is that He could maneuver them … but He doesn’t know the individuals who will accomplish those events. He can see what’s in a person’s heart, but that doesn’t mean He knows they’ll follow it. The Ninevites in Jonah are a great example of this.

According to Scripture, another time God read the heart but obviously didn’t know, was the account of Cain. Jehovah knew which path Cain was heading toward… that of sin… but still He tried to reason with Cain, to get him to stop. Jehovah wouldn’t have done that, if Cain were predestined.

There are other situations in Scripture dealing with individuals, where Jehovah did not know.

There have been 3 exceptions to this: Jeremiah, Jesus His Son (of course), and Cyrus the Great. But all 3 carried out His purposes, i.e., “did good deeds.”

For @Trailblazer ; I wanted to make sure you read this. I don’t want your faith in God and His love to get damaged. I know you’ve experienced pain quite a bit.

I hope the following posted thread by a former RF member will help. It mirrors my view:
"Why? Why? WHY?!" a direct quote from Ceridwen018 and many others

Take care.

 

[KWED]

I know .. it's confusing.

Maybe for you, as you keep demonstrating. I, however, have a firm grasp on the issue.

As far as we are concerned, we perceive that we haven't made them yet.

That's because, as far as we are concerned, in the only time we experience, we haven't.

We also perceive time as passing from the past to the future.

Because that's how we experience it, because that's how it works in our universe.

While the past is known, the future is hidden from us.

Indeed. But you accept that under Islam, that future is fixed and we do not have the ability to change it.

G-d [ that you don't believe exists ]

Irrelevant. We are assuming he exists for the purposes of this discussion. Otherwise, what would be the point?

has an entirely different perception. God created this space-time continuum and is not part of it. As far as G-d is concerned, He perceives we have already made the choices. It's as if we are in some kind of time warp.

Once again I have to ask you to explain how this affects the nature of our fixed future, in the linear time line we experience, in this universe.

Imagine you are reading a book. You come to a passage where the hero has to choose between saving himself or going back for his friend. In the book's (our) timeline he is making a free choice (influenced by previous events and future expectations), but that is just an illusion because in the author's universe (god's space warped time) that choice has already been fixed by the author knowing and deciding what it will be.
(Note: "Nonsense" is not an appropriate response here. If you believe it is nonsense you need to explain why.)

 

[KWED]

How can anyone know how a God experiences time?

"We can never understand how god works" (when it suits)
"I know exactly how god works" (when it suits)

It's the ultimate get-out clause.

 

[KWED]

Through scripture..
"The pen is lifted, and the ink is dry"

That means that god has recorded future events (50,000 years before creation) and those events cannot be changed.
Which means we do not have free will in the matter of those events.
QED.

Also, that suggest a linear timeline in relation to what god is doing in his own spacetime. (Something happens, then something happens)

 

[KWED]

Of course it can. It all depends on your intention .. and overall knowledge.

Indeed.
If you use only one source and start with the assumption that it must be true, you will interpret it one way.
If you use multiple sources and value evidence and reason over ideological dogma, you will interpret it a different way.

 

[KWED]

What rubbish.
People that drive along the highway suddenly are not the ones driving if an agent is aware of the future?

It's like something out of a science fiction novel. It doesn't correspond to reality.

Oh dear. Surely it can't be that difficult.

Does a self-driving car choose its actions through free will, or are its actions inevitable because of external events?