I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[Trailblazer]

I hope you and your husband are well.
Sorry I took so long to reply…
Then what’s the spiritual lesson here? If the account is taken as allegorical, then the lesson should be easy to discern. Like Aesops fables.

If I understand it as allegorical, I see no lesson.

Cain and Abel are the first two sons of Adam and Eve after they were expelled from the Garden of Eden in the biblical book of Genesis. According to the biblical story, Cain killed Abel because God accepted Abel's sacrifice but rejected Cain's. With this act of jealousy, Cain became the first murderer.
Cain & Abel

As I see it, the lesson is not to commit murder out of jealousy.

 

[Trailblazer]

John 8:44; 1 John 3:8; Revelation 12:9.

Why do you think the world is so messed up?

Simple. Because humans messed it up.
God gave man free will to choose between good and evil and many people chose evil.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Free to make only one choice,..

Yes .. the one we will make.

All word play, I'm afraid .. but you can't see it seems.

 

[Sheldon]

As I see it, the lesson is not to commit murder out of jealousy.

Or at all.

 

[muhammad_isa]

From having knowledge of events before they happen, obvs. That is the whole point.

But we haven't yet made them. God only knows that we will make them.

..so if G-d knows what we will choose, then how is our choice no longer free?
The only reason that we have to choose what G-d knows is because G-d knows we will choose it of our own free will.
You imply that is not the reason. You imply that we choose it because we are unable to choose anything else.
THAT IS FALSE.

If we had wanted to choose something else, then G-d would have known it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If god does not have infallible foreknowledge of events, then of course those events aren't fixed. It is no different from me guessing about what you will have for dinner tomorrow.

They are fixed. They are fixed by our choices .. IN ALL CASES.

 

[Trailblazer]

NO .. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT WE CAN MAKE A CHOICE OTHER THAN GOD KNOWS WE WILL CHOOSE

But that does not mean we did not have a choice before we chose what God knew we would choose...
Had we made a different choice, that choice would have been the choice God knew we would choose.
This is drop dead simple logic. I have to think that people who do not understand have a mind block.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Had we made a different choice, that choice would have been the choice God knew we would choose.
This is drop dead simple logic. I have to think that people who do not understand have a mind block.

Precisely !
It would seem that they are unable to see it.
God knows why.

 

[Trailblazer]

The only reason that we have to choose what G-d knows is because G-d knows we will choose it of our own free will.
You imply that is not the reason. You imply that we choose it because we are unable to choose anything else.
THAT IS FALSE.

We are able to choose whatever we want to choose if it is available to choose.
We will choose what God knows we will choose, because God knows what we will choose.
If we had chosen something else that would have been what God knew we would choose.
Whatever we choose will be what God knew we would choose.

Why is this so difficult for some people to understand?

 

[Trailblazer]

Precisely !
It would seem that they are unable to see it.
God knows why.

and only God knows why.
I think they take what is so simple and complicate it....
either that or they make false assumptions about what it means for God to be all-knowing.

 

[John53]

But that does not mean we did not have a choice before we chose what God knew we would choose...
Had we made a different choice, that choice would have been the choice God knew we would choose.
This is drop dead simple logic. I have to think that people who do not understand have a mind block.

I have to think anyone who believes this happens is living in a fantasy world. It's clearly an excuse made up by men to explain how a loving god sits about doing nothing.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have to think anyone who believes this happens is living in a fantasy world. It's clearly an excuse made up by men to explain how a loving god sits about doing nothing.

Do you mean that humans having free will to do something is an excuse for God doing nothing?
If humans did nothing what would be the reason for us to live in this world?

God does not do nothing because God sends Messengers. The Messengers do something as God's Representatives on earth. God does not come to earth Himself, God always remains in His own High Place.

 

[KWED]

I am not claiming that G-d "waves His wand" and determines the future .. that would be you.

No, it is not me. It is the principle of Qadr. It is the opinion of people with a sound, first-hand knowledge of Allah's message. It is god himself. They all say that god decides people's fate, so not sure why you think you know better.

Look, I understand that you find that idea difficult. It essentially means that the very foundation of Islam - heaven and hell as reward and punishment for our actions - us unsound, unjust, unreasonable and incoherent. Unfortunately, them's the rules. I don't make them, so don't blame me. You chose to join Islam, so you deal with the consequences. (Of course, under Islam you did not choose to accept Allah, he decreed that you would, so you are not responsible. )

 

[KWED]

You're getting warmer..
G-d only knows what we will choose because He perceives the future as already completed. We have already made our choices. Yes.

How can we have already made our choices before we have made them? Remember that we experience time in a linear fashion.
So basically you are saying that the future is fixed and unchangeable. It is a single track that we are blindly and inevitably following and there is no way to alter its course.
But we still have free will to alter its course.

 

[Sheldon]

If we had wanted to choose something else, then G-d would have known it.

Do you believe your deity just knows all the choices we might make, or knows the exact one we will make?

...and around and around we go...

 

[KWED]

I'd bet my house he contradicts this again, back and forth and back and forth. he is simply making one claim, then making an opposite claim, as if this doesn't involve a contradiction.

It's theological Whack-a-Mole™. Just deal with the problem in front of you. Don't worry about any new problem your answer might raise. Deal with that later in the same way.

 

[John53]

Do you mean that humans having free will to do something is an excuse for God doing nothing?

No

If humans did nothing what would be the reason for us to live in this world?

None. The same goes for following a known script to a known conclusion, it's pointless.

God does not do nothing because God sends Messengers. The Messengers do something as God's Representatives on earth. God does not come to earth Himself, God always remains in His own High Place.

Yes, they're a dime a dozen. Jim Jones, David Koresh , Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, Bikram Yoga, L Ron Hubbard etc etc. I've even seen self professed messengers of God toting their wares on RF.

 

[Sheldon]

NO .. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT WE CAN MAKE A CHOICE OTHER THAN GOD KNOWS WE WILL CHOOSE

If we had wanted to choose something else, then G-d would have known it.

we are "limited to only that choice" is because G-d knows what you will choose.

 

[Sheldon]

They are fixed. They are fixed by our choices .. IN ALL CASES.

So they are fixed then, and we cannot have free will, glad to hear that's what you do believe. I look forward to you now contradicting that claim.

 

[Sheldon]

we chose what God knew we would choose...

Can we choose otherwise?