I Can Not Respect A God who Allows Children to Suffer

[MSizer]

No it glorifies faith. Faith is a strong thing do you have faith in anything?

Absolutely not, because faith is irrational. Hope is a mental state which the holder wishes to reflect some real state of the world, but s/he is aware that it may not be an accurate reflection. Belief is a mental state which the holder in fact certifies to be an accurate reflection of some part of the world (and there are many things that result in belief, some legitamate, other not). Faith is deliberate holding of belief despite evidence (empirical or logical) to the contrary. Therefore, faith is never rational. While it can be comforting, it does not empower us to make informed decisions, which are the only means by which we can maximize human wellbeing (economic, cultural and spiritual). Faith is not only intellectualy bankrupt, it is a handicap in human moral progress.

 

[painted wolf]

What if it is not?

Pascals wager only works if there is but one faith, otherwise it is a useless non-argument. What if the Koran is the right book, or Huckleberry Finn or Red Fish Blue Fish.

A book says so is not positive evidence or an argument... it is simply a justification.

If wrong I have lost nothing and perhaps helped someone in their life. I die and my body lives on forever in the world and continues the great eternal circle.

What if you choose wrong? Lots of books say lots of things and there are a lot of ways of reading books. Otherwise there would only be one Christianity.

Again, what you propose isn't an argument, it's a justification.

If I am not wrong? Same thing but with a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Be careful you don't chase the gold off the cliff.

wa:do

 

[Archer]

Absolutely not, because faith is irrational. Hope is a mental state which the holder wishes to reflect some real state of the world, but s/he is aware that it may not be an accurate reflection. Belief is a mental state which the holder in fact certifies to be an accurate reflection of some part of the world (and there are many things that result in belief, some legitamate, other not). Faith is deliberate holding of belief despite evidence (empirical or logical) to the contrary. Therefore, faith is never rational. While it can be comforting, it does not empower us to make informed decisions, which are the only means by which we can maximize human wellbeing (economic, cultural and spiritual). Faith is not only intellectualy bankrupt, it is a handicap in human moral progress.

I have faith that I will get my tax refund.

Main Entry: 1faith
Pronunciation: \ˈfāth\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths
\ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāthz\
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide
Date: 13th century
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : [COLOR=darkgreen ! important]fidelity to one's promises (2) :[/COLOR] sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>
synonyms see belief
— on faith : without question <took everything he said on faith>


I have faith in my wife, my dog, many things. It is those who have faith in nothing but themselves, such as the historical villains, that are a threat.



I feel sorry for you. You are narrow minded and really have no idea what faith is.


I think you are trying to tie faith to an imaginary friend complex. It is not.

 

[MSizer]

I have faith that I will get my tax refund..

No, you believe you will get your tax refund, which is rational, because the gov't has a decent track record of providing them. If the gov't had never returned a tax refund in history, and you believed (without specific unusual circumstances) that you would still get yours, that would be faith, and it would be irrational..[/quote]

I have faith in my wife, my dog, many things. It is those who have faith in nothing but themselves, such as the historical villains, that are a threat..

You know your wife, and presumably she deserves your trust by her track record. Why don't you have the same faith in every stranger that walks down the street? Because you don't know their track record, therefore can not asess the probability that they are trustworthy. That's a rational stance. If someone had faith in every stranger passing by, you'd consider him a fool.

I feel sorry for you. You are narrow minded and really have no idea what faith is..

No, I am rational and have (and continue to) explore this concept and others related to it, with a particular interest in religion.

I think you are trying to tie faith to an imaginary friend complex. It is not.

I'm not trying to do anything but call it like it is. The fact that everyone who believes in jesus does have an imaginary friend complex and also thinks that it's good is not my fault.

 

[Archer]

Just don't get too far off of your point MSizer you said I am a threat because I have faith.

If I were to be a threat it would be against my religion.

 

[MSizer]

Just don't get too far off of your point MSizer you said I am a threat because I have faith.

Correct.

If I were to be a threat it would be against my religion.

Incorrect. Faith ALWAYS introduces the potential for danger. The amazing thing about faith is that it washes the holder clean of any sense of responsibility for that potential danger by empowering them with the delusion that they can't do wrong as long as they act in accordance with their faith. That is an inherently evil position, as it drives a wall between rational negotiation and certain human behaviour.

 

[Archer]

You speak of self proclaimed leaders of faith, power hungry monsters not the people of faith.

 

[MSizer]

You speak of self proclaimed leaders of faith, power hungry monsters not the people of faith.

No, I speak of all people of faith. I'm not talking about atrocity tales like 9/11 or the crusades. I'm talking about the neighbor who thinks that going overseas to fight is god's will. I'm talking about the muslim who kills his daughter because he thinks it's better than letting american influence damn her soul to eternal suffering in hell. I'm talking about the local members of the women's catholic league with enough time on their hands to worry about the bedroom practices of two other consenting adults. I'm talking about everyone who holds unjustifiable beliefs.

 

[Walkntune]

Incorrect. Faith ALWAYS introduces the potential for danger. The amazing thing about faith is that it washes the holder clean of any sense of responsibility for that potential danger by empowering them with the delusion that they can't do wrong as long as they act in accordance with their faith. That is an inherently evil position, as it drives a wall between rational negotiation and certain human behaviour.

Its those who lack faith and think they are the ones in control of the universe and afraid to let go of control that are the potential for danger!

 

[MSizer]

Its those who lack faith and think they are the ones in control of the universe and afraid to let go of control that are the potential for danger!

Anyone who thinks he's in control of the universe is a person of faith.

 

[Archer]

No, I speak of all people of faith. I'm not talking about atrocity tales like 9/11 or the crusades. I'm talking about the neighbor who thinks that going overseas to fight is god's will. I'm talking about the muslim who kills his daughter because he thinks it's better than letting american influence damn her soul to eternal suffering in hell. I'm talking about the local members of the women's catholic league with enough time on their hands to worry about the bedroom practices of two other consenting adults. I'm talking about everyone who holds unjustifiable beliefs.

OK!!! You are way off base here. Don't confuse radicals with logical people of faith, there is a big difference. I don't (nor does anyone I know that is a christian) act in the way you have described. I see many with no faith/religion (Not atheists) in the streets causing problems and committing crimes all of the time.

I really don't care what other people do though I may not like it. If it is in their home it is their business (as long as there is not a meth lab). This is the view of the christian majority.

 

[Walkntune]

Anyone who thinks he's in control of the universe is a person of faith.

Sorry but trying to control is based out of fear.Those on top try to keep everyone else suppressed for fear of loosing their power etc...
Fear is the enemy, not faith.

 

[painted wolf]

You speak of self proclaimed leaders of faith, power hungry monsters not the people of faith.

No true Scotsman... how do you those people don't have faith? Many people of faith think that god gives them the success they have in life, even if that success is from harming others. Prosperity gospel for example.

wa:do

 

[MSizer]

OK!!! You are way off base here. Don't confuse radicals with logical people of faith, there is a big difference.

Faith is by it's very definition illogical.

I don't (nor does anyone I know that is a christian) act in the way you have described. I see many with no faith/religion (Not atheists) in the streets causing problems and committing crimes all of the time. .

Of course. Irrational behaviour is rampant.

I really don't care what other people do though I may not like it. If it is in their home it is their business (as long as there is not a meth lab). This is the view of the christian majority.

Fine, and that's you, and many other believers too, but the fact remains that belief fuels one's actions, and when belief entails the eternal fate of the soul, it's dangerous, period. It's unjustifiable, and it creates one (several actually) more reason to fight amongst one another.

BTW, do you vote? If so, then your beliefs affect me, whether you realize it or not.

 

[Archer]

Faith is by it's very definition illogical.



Of course. Irrational behaviour is rampant.



Fine, and that's you, and many other believers too, but the fact remains that belief fuels one's actions, and when belief entails the eternal fate of the soul, it's dangerous, period. It's unjustifiable, and it creates one (several actually) more reason to fight amongst one another.

BTW, do you vote? If so, then your beliefs affect me, whether you realize it or not.

I vote with my dollar I am against rampant commercialism.

I appreciate you clarifying you statement. I do disagree with you in part but your points are valid and I do agree with most of your post.

 

[Archer]

No true Scotsman... how do you those people don't have faith? Many people of faith think that god gives them the success they have in life, even if that success is from harming others. Prosperity gospel for example.

wa:do

OK, let me clarify. These people have faith but it is a misdirected sense of purpose or perhaps some mental issue that causes them to lie and fantasize ie. Pat Robertson.

 

[painted wolf]

OK, let me clarify. These people have faith but it is a misdirected sense of purpose or perhaps some mental issue that causes them to lie and fantasize ie. Pat Robertson.

You state that with authority... can you read their soul or is this just opinion? Be careful where you draw the line between opinion and fact.

wa:do

 

[Archer]

Some of these people believe their own rhetoric. Do I believe every person of power within established religion are like this no, I do not. When I hear a minister speak of the yoke of bondage that was the law and then in the next breath speak of keeping the store house full and cheating God, yeah I know where their priorities are. With their pocket not the Bible. One can not invoke the law on people as a Christian without risking salvation.

Yes I have much authority to speak with as I have the text they twist every week to suit their needs.

 

[Peacewise]

faith
// (say fayth)
noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing.
2. belief which is not based on proof.
3. belief in the doctrines or teachings of religion.
4. the doctrines which are or should be believed.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity (to a person, promise, engagement, etc.): to keep or break faith with.
7. the observance of this obligation: to act in good or bad faith.
8. Theology that trust in God and in God's promises as made through Christ by which humanity is justified or saved.
–phrase 9. in faith, Archaic in truth; indeed.
10. put one's faith in, to have every confidence in; believe in. [Middle English, from Old French feit, from Latin fides]

faith is also ^ 1, not merely an irrational belief. Faith can be well founded in a relationship with a person, or in the government tax system that was mentioned earlier. Faith is about confidence, trust and belief, any one of those or all of them.

Faith can be rational or irrational.

 

[logician]

God depends no more upon your respect of Him than does He depend on the worship of those around you. Suffering is a part of life. That it only gets worse is mankind's fault and not the fault of God. Don't like that people are suffering? Then do something to help ease the sufferings rather than placing the blame on God.

Why not accept that suffering is an inevitable random part of living with nature, and that there is no god that figures into the equation FOR bad or good.