I don't think we should hide the woman.

[Lain]

Sorry, but I see this as a bizarre question. "Rights" and "abilities" have nothing to do with one another.

I am a very strong believer in the idea that people must be permitted to live their lives as they see fit, so long as they do not harm anyone else in doing so. If you decide you want to dance in a pink tutu in your driveway, I believe that you should be free to do so, and that I have nothing to say about it (other than perhaps an artistic critique in the local paper).

It is bizarre because I usually have no idea what people mean by the word "rights." I often mentally replace it with "privilege in court" or "duties owed" to try and make sense of things. But with further explanation I get your idea, although it hinges on "harm." If people recognize different possible harms they'll recognize different permissions. In that way, I would say I entirely agree.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It is bizarre because I usually have no idea what people mean by the word "rights." I often mentally replace it with "privilege in court" or "duties owed" to try and make sense of things. But with further explanation I get your idea, although it hinges on "harm." If people recognize different possible harms they'll recognize different permissions. In that way, I would say I entirely agree.

Rights are easy.

Do I have the right to try and breath air -- or should there be someone who has the power to deny me that? Do I have the right to try and be happy, or should there be someone who can command me to be miserable? Do I have the right to walk out into the street to enjoy fresh air, or should somebody be able to say "fresh air is only for people not like you?"

 

[DNB]

I believe in dressing in modesty but not to hide away a person so much that they become persona none grata, but like other have said, if a woman want to cover by her free will, then they should be allowed to do so. But not because a man tell them to.

That's true. I would just like to say that there's something to be said for the noble position of requiring people to dress in an inoffensive manner. Not to the austerity of the Muslim law, but merely that it's derived from a reputable principle.

 

[DNB]

A person has the right to dress as they wish without being harrassed for it. As soon as someone else begins harrassing that person, the harrasser is at fault not the harrassed.

Who said otherwise?

 

[DNB]

I think since western culture emphasizes looks, women who think it's the best way to get attention will wear skimpy clothes. I don't mean just normal lightweight clothing because it's warm, but stuff you can't help noticing. They may feel they don't have any other way to get noticed. The smart girls don't get as much recognition as the pretty girls. Sometimes girls that are "too smart" turn guys off. Guys don't get judged by their looks like females do, so we use it, or abuse it, in some cases. So many women think they have to wear make up, nail polish, skimpy clothes, etc when outside the house, and I never got that attitude. Guys can just be themselves; we should be able to as well.

You're right. And, again, maybe that's the guys fault for empowering them when they do so i.e. giving them the attention that they're looking for.
The conventions of western society is as misguided as it gets - dog-eat-dog attitude, looking out for #1, wealth is power, sex sells, etc...
Women should learn to respect themselves, and appreciate the fact that any one that they are able to allure with such superficial attractions, ain't worth alluring.

 

[Clara Tea]

Honestly if men tries to hide a woman in a burka or in some other ways, then it is not the woman that is the problem. It is the men. If a man can not control his lust without hiding away the females. The veil isn't in the clothes it is in the mind.

Oh boy am I gonna be put in place for saying this

The privacy of hiding one's face? That's what you're worried about? Let me give you a real privacy issue, one that affects you and everyone in the world.

Iphones come with apps (like an app that plays a game of checkers). Apps give permissions, and often permissions that have nothing to do with the functions of the apps. So, you might have a game of checkers that turns on your camera and microphone. The apps don't ask permission. Everyone's phones come with these invasive apps. Such invasions of privacy can steal corporate secrets, observe your little girl taking a shower nude, look at your little boys playing (while lusty pedophiles look at them), spy on friends and relatives, check on your wife's extramarital life, access any file or photo, etc. No light comes on and no alarm beeps when your camera and microphone come on. No....it's not a conspiracy theory...it's real....absolutely real.....it's true.....absolutely true.

Religious Right choice, President W. Bush, who would not have been elected without the religious right, had ordered private iphone companies and software companies to allow hacking (to get criminals, like drug dealers). W. Bush passed the unpatriotic Patriot Act that spies on the American public in order to catch criminals. It was only supposed to stay in effect for a short while, and only for a specific purpose...to catch the al Qaeda.

In his religious paranoid zeal, President W. Bush hacked all phones in America (completely violating the 4th Amendment (search and seizure)). Eric Snowden (CIA) blew the whistle, and gave classified CIA documents of the phone tap project to the press, making him a wanted man (in Russia now). Related projects hack computers, iphones, etc. Senator Diane Feinstein, and many other senators, excoriated Snowden for exposing the names of under cover operatives and details of a classified project, but it was all to protect the 4th Amendment rights of the citizens, and nothing could be more patriotic than that.

Honestly if men tries to hide a woman in a burka or in some other ways, then it is not the woman that is the problem. It is the men. If a man can not control his lust without hiding away the females. The veil isn't in the clothes it is in the mind.

Oh boy am I gonna be put in place for saying this

The privacy of hiding one's face? That's what you're worried about? Let me give you a real privacy issue, one that affects you and everyone in the world.



Iphones come with apps (like an app that plays a game of checkers). Apps give permissions, and often permissions that have nothing to do with the functions of the apps. So, you might have a game of checkers that turns on your camera and microphone. The apps don't ask permission, they merely have permissions that you could cancel (so you have to review your apps and check their permissions). Everyone's phones come with these invasive apps. Such invasions of privacy can steal corporate secrets, observe your little girl taking a shower nude, look at your little boys playing (while lusty pedophiles look at them), spy on friends and relatives, check on your wife's extramarital life, access any file or photo, etc. No light comes on and no alarm beeps when your camera and microphone come on. No....it's not a conspiracy theory...it's real....absolutely real.....it's true.....absolutely true.



Religious Right choice, President W. Bush, who would not have been elected without the religious right, had ordered private iphone companies and software companies to allow hacking (to allow the FBI and law enforcement to get criminals, like drug dealers). W. Bush passed the unpatriotic Patriot Act that spies on the American public in order to catch criminals. It was only supposed to stay in effect for a short while, and only for a specific purpose...to catch the al Qaeda.



In his religious paranoid zeal, President W. Bush hacked all phones in America (completely violating the 4th Amendment (search and seizure)). Eric Snowden (CIA) blew the whistle, and gave classified CIA documents of the phone tap project to the press, making him a wanted man (in Russia now). Related projects hack computers, iphones, etc. Senator Diane Feinstein, and many other senators, excoriated Snowden for exposing the names of under cover operatives and details of a classified project, but it was all to protect the 4th Amendment rights of the citizens, and nothing could be more patriotic than that. Snowden had no choice, because he could not go to his boss.



Airports see every contour of nude bodies under clothes, using ultrasound. Some objected to men and women seeing men and women nude with these scanners, so they made electronic fig leaves to hide critical areas (if they want the fig leaves on).



Law enforcement has instruments that can look through solid walls, analyze the vibration of windows using laser interference fringes to hear sounds inside of buildings. But, all of the entitlements that we give law enforcement are also available for criminals. They can do anything that law enforcement can do (including spy on us).



The Religious Right says that they have nothing to hide, and catching criminals is more important than their privacy. But, I worry that America is quickly becoming a Communist dictatorship--the so-called "big brother" that spies on its own people.

 

[Sand Dancer]

You're right. And, again, maybe that's the guys fault for empowering them when they do so i.e. giving them the attention that they're looking for.
The conventions of western society is as misguided as it gets - dog-eat-dog attitude, looking out for #1, wealth is power, sex sells, etc...
Women should learn to respect themselves, and appreciate the fact that any one that they are able to allure with such superficial attractions, ain't worth alluring.

To some, even negative attention is better than no attention. I wonder if some guys just think women are there to be playthings, that we are not equal to them and shouldn't be, so they act out to humiliate us. I don't know...

 

[DNB]

To some, even negative attention is better than no attention. I wonder if some guys just think women are there to be playthings, that we are not equal to them and shouldn't be, so they act out to humiliate us. I don't know...

Well, without a doubt, there's one who fits your description in every crowd. So, yes, there is a demography that feels that way. But, also, there are a few good men who still desire to be gentlemen and dignified. Of course, I've always felt that women and men are complete equals as far as morality goes, meaning, show me one corrupt and chauvinistic man, and I can show you 10 woman who are worse, and vice-versa.
I'm not sure if men desire to humiliate women, as much as when they see an opportunity they will exploit it for their own selfish lusts. Sad part is, often both parties are looking for the same thing, i.e. a superficial relationship, and thus, the whole provocative game just gets perpetuated.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I already answered this but from another angle I will reply. If they perceive the wisdom, they should follow it regardless if they accept Quran or not. They tend not to perceive wisdom though and this is one of the reasons God reveals a book of insights, so as to give sight back to the utterly blind evil people and God attempts to intercede on our paths through his chosen interceders and holy books so that we return to him.

Quran reveals it's satanic intoxication that makes people into sexual deviance and a way to combat this is yes to guard our own looks which Quran emphasizes on, but also for women not to tempt men, and guard by clothing that covers as much as possible.

You have become to extreme in my eyes. Your interpretation of the teaching is more from hate toward anyone who does not see it as you do.

Where is your love and kindness?

 

[firedragon]

Quran reveals it's satanic intoxication that makes people into sexual deviance and a way to combat this is yes to guard our own looks which Quran emphasizes on, but also for women not to tempt men, and guard by clothing that covers as much as possible.

Which Qur'an are you speaking about? I have never seen a Qur'an like that.

I can promise you that you are not interpreting the Qur'an, you are reading into it all of these things. Satanic intoxication, etc etc??

Maybe you could produce this strange book you are calling the Qur'an. I can promise you that it is a made up book, not the book Muslims generally accept as the Qur'an.

 

[firedragon]

I have no problem at all with lust -- quite enjoy lustful feelings, actually. But acting on those feelings uninvited -- that's the problem.

I think that's not the problem. Studies have shown that this so called "acting" is not just based on lust. It has more to it. Especially since you mentioned "uninvited".

It has a lot to do with a psychological dysfunction. The "acting" is a symptom.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Who said otherwise?

As much as this is true, people have to take responsibility for the message that they send to the public. Dressing sexy implies sex, and doing so elicits such thoughts within those exposed to your attire. No one has the right to do anything more than look, but do not be surprised if you receive unexpected reactions from those around you. Prostitutes and strippers dress in a certain manner in order to allure men for illicit engagements. When the clothes that you are wearing resemble those in such professions, don't be alarmed if men feel that they have license, in one manner or another, to express their desires to you.

 

[oldbadger]

Honestly if men tries to hide a woman in a burka or in some other ways, then it is not the woman that is the problem. It is the men. If a man can not control his lust without hiding away the females. The veil isn't in the clothes it is in the mind.

Oh boy am I gonna be put in place for saying this

Where I live it's the young males who hide their heads and faces...... it's the fashion.

Where any person is forced to wear face coverings, then this obviously bad, but some men and women want to..........

 

[Spirit of Light]

Where I live it's the young males who hide their heads and faces...... it's the fashion.

Where any person is forced to wear face coverings, then this obviously bad, but some men and women want to..........

As long it is of free will, then of course it's ok

 

[Link]

You have become to extreme in my eyes. Your interpretation of the teaching is more from hate toward anyone who does not see it as you do.

Where is your love and kindness?

Sometimes to forbid evil, you have to be dark knight no one likes.

 

[Link]

Which Qur'an are you speaking about? I have never seen a Qur'an like that.

I can promise you that you are not interpreting the Qur'an, you are reading into it all of these things. Satanic intoxication, etc etc??

Maybe you could produce this strange book you are calling the Qur'an. I can promise you that it is a made up book, not the book Muslims generally accept as the Qur'an.

According to Quran and Sunnah, evil deeds come from the evil companion in the journey, but when we sin, we open doors for dark sorcery to take over us and blind us and we are most to blame for evil deeds. The evil companion is also responsible though he will try to blame the one who he lead astray and be free from blame on the day of judgment. Good deeds on the other stem from the blessed word and tree and God has priority in it belonging to him and is most worthy of being praised for them.

Both of these are magical in nature, the former is illusionary world and a lot of them think they are guided and good, while the latter is the true holy power from God. The talk about the two energies and two sources of magic is talked about in Quran with respect to deviant Jinn and sorcerers and God's chosen and trusted ones from Angels and from humans having true power.

The battle between the two companions in the journey, one from God and one from Iblis, is talked about in Quran. The two witnesses see our deeds and Jinn and Angels are discussed because human in the unseen is part of that world and are unseen aspect relates to that world.

The Quran says about people of Lut who were intoxicated "(I swear) by your life, they were in their intoxication blinding". The Jinn and lanterns of guidance in the heaven, are talked about in the Surah. The way to take refuge from evil of what God created is in his name and pure word brought to life.

 

[firedragon]

According to Quran and Sunnah, evil deeds come from the evil companion in the journey, but when we sin, we open doors for dark sorcery to take over us and blind us and we are most to blame for evil deeds. The evil companion is also responsible though he will try to blame the one who he lead astray and be free from blame on the day of judgment. Good deeds on the other stem from the blessed word and tree and God has priority in it belonging to him and is most worthy of being praised for them.

Both of these are magical in nature, the former is illusionary world and a lot of them think they are guided and good, while the latter is the true holy power from God. The talk about the two energies and two sources of magic is talked about in Quran with respect to deviant Jinn and sorcerers and God's chosen and trusted ones from Angels and from humans having true power.

The battle between the two companions in the journey, one from God and one from Iblis, is talked about in Quran. The two witnesses see our deeds and Jinn and Angels are discussed because human in the unseen is part of that world and are unseen aspect relates to that world.

The Quran says about people of Lut who were intoxicated "(I swear) by your life, they were in their intoxication blinding". The Jinn and lanterns of guidance in the heaven, are talked about in the Surah. The way to take refuge from evil of what God created is in his name and pure word brought to life.

Way too much inferences there Link. You mixed up a whole lot of things but you did not answer the question on the Qur'an.

Anyway, I withdraw from that discussion.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I never said he was lusting. But they were certainly trying to cause lust.
Yes of course I wanted my girls to dress modesty and not behave like whores. What is wrong with that?

I agree that children should not be sexualized, but I think you are avoiding the point that lust is a two way street. I can't say much about your story except how it expresses your personal views and your personal criteria for determining what is whorish behavior. Not being there, I cannot determine what that is.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I was old and mature enough not to lust after children.

That is the point. As a man, you controlled yourself. If they were children, then the person in charge of them was responsible for putting them on display and not the children themselves. Barring the rational exercise of limits, adults control themselves. Lust is not something that is thrown at weak and innocent men that suddenly strips that control off and they must act. Covering up the girls--or women--might not even mean anything to that control in some people.

 

[Wildswanderer]

That is the point. As a man, you controlled yourself. If they were children, then the person in charge of them was responsible for putting them on display and not the children themselves

Which is even more disgusting. Again you aren't being realistic. Such displays do elicit lust naturally in men... why else do men go to strip clubs?