I give up fighting Islamophobia

[nazz]

People are getting too hung on the term "Islamophobia". Call it what you want but there are people who hate Muslims, there are people who fear Muslims, and there are people who are ignorant of Islam and have all kinds of misconceptions about it. And my sense is that the people like that are on the rise and that is leading to all out war.

 

[Lyndon]

Exactly, my impression is that only God can save us from a World wide war and possible destruction of most of the earth, Right now Russia will jump to support any Muslim country, they already have backed Iran and supplied the know how and parts for their reactors. This is not a joke, its the cold war all over again, the sooner you get the idea that no one can win a world war with Russia, Muslims, Or Russia and Muslims together, the better, Then both sides can retreat to their respective sides of the earth and keep praying that no idiot will try to push the nuclear button.

 

[Cephus]

People are getting too hung on the term "Islamophobia". Call it what you want but there are people who hate Muslims, there are people who fear Muslims, and there are people who are ignorant of Islam and have all kinds of misconceptions about it. And my sense is that the people like that are on the rise and that is leading to all out war.

But there are tons of people who have really really good reasons to hate and fear Muslims, yet you don't want to acknowledge that. A lot of the hatred that Islam is getting is entirely well-deserved. It's funny how many people point fingers and scream "ISLAMOPHOBIA" refuse to acknowledge the evils that Muslims are actually engaged in.

 

[LuisDantas]

People are getting too hung on the term "Islamophobia".

Because it is both innacurate and misleading. It is all too often used to paint legitimate, much-needed criticism as some sort of unfair persecution.

That ill serves either Muslims or non-Muslims.

Call it what you want but there are people who hate Muslims, there are people who fear Muslims, and there are people who are ignorant of Islam and have all kinds of misconceptions about it. And my sense is that the people like that are on the rise and that is leading to all out war.

That is certainly true, but it is not the whole truth.

In order for such a situation to be defused, a necessary step is for legitimate criticism to me dealt with maturity and respect, as opposed to just shunted away with accusations of "Islamophobia" that serve for little but to further incense spirits.

 

[Lyndon]

You're not a peacemaker, are you???

 

[gsa]

People are getting too hung on the term "Islamophobia". Call it what you want but there are people who hate Muslims, there are people who fear Muslims, and there are people who are ignorant of Islam and have all kinds of misconceptions about it. And my sense is that the people like that are on the rise and that is leading to all out war.

There are people (Muslims) who hate non-Muslims, fear non-Muslims and are ignorant of any belief system apart from Islam, and have very bizarre misconceptions about non-Muslims. It is my sense, looking at the Muslim world, that people like that are on the rise, and it is leading to all out war, beginning with the "non-Muslims" in their midst (ironically including many Muslims).

I mean it is just too easy to generalize about this. There are rational critics of Islam and Islamism, including a number of ex-Muslims, who cannot fairly be labeled "Islamophobic." I want to separate those individuals from more bigoted opponents because if we do not, then they will be forced to align themselves with the right. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, for instance, is not a natural ally of the right wing. Yet she now remains there, having been abandoned almost entirely by the left.

 

[LuisDantas]

You're not a peacemaker, are you???

I hope it just looks like you are attempting to ask me something. You may want to clarify who you mean to ask, and what is asked.

Or better yet, just open your heart and be done with it. It will probably have the same results, only faster.

 

[nazz]

Because it is both innacurate and misleading. It is all too often used to paint legitimate, much-needed criticism as some sort of unfair persecution.

That ill serves either Muslims or non-Muslims.

OK, but that is not what I am doing. It's not how I am using the term.

That is certainly true, but it is not the whole truth.

In order for such a situation to be defused, a necessary step is for legitimate criticism to me dealt with maturity and respect, as opposed to just shunted away with accusations of "Islamophobia" that serve for little but to further incense spirits.

What specifically do you think needs to be dealt with and in what manner?

 

[LuisDantas]

There are people (Muslims) who hate non-Muslims, fear non-Muslims and are ignorant of any belief system apart from Islam, and have very bizarre misconceptions about non-Muslims. It is my sense, looking at the Muslim world, that people like that are on the rise, and it is leading to all out war, beginning with the "non-Muslims" in their midst (ironically including many Muslims).

I mean it is just too easy to generalize about this. There are rational critics of Islam and Islamism, including a number of ex-Muslims, who cannot fairly be labeled "Islamophobic." I want to separate those individuals from more bigoted opponents because if we do not, then they will be forced to align themselves with the right. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, for instance, is not a natural ally of the right wing. Yet she now remains there, having been abandoned almost entirely by the left.

So true. The abuse of the idea that there is rampaging "Islamophobia" around is very destructive for Islam. It often forces criticism to disregard what Muslims have to say about the fears about Islam, because we are so summarily branded in unreasonable ways.

The plain fact is that trust can only be attained with respectful dialogue. And frankly, many Muslims are deeply deluded about how reasonable their expectations are.

 

[nazz]

There are people (Muslims) who hate non-Muslims, fear non-Muslims and are ignorant of any belief system apart from Islam, and have very bizarre misconceptions about non-Muslims. It is my sense, looking at the Muslim world, that people like that are on the rise, and it is leading to all out war, beginning with the "non-Muslims" in their midst (ironically including many Muslims).

Of course. It is not a one way street. I am just most exposed to the reverse living in the West.

I mean it is just too easy to generalize about this. There are rational critics of Islam and Islamism, including a number of ex-Muslims, who cannot fairly be labeled "Islamophobic." I want to separate those individuals from more bigoted opponents because if we do not, then they will be forced to align themselves with the right. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, for instance, is not a natural ally of the right wing. Yet she now remains there, having been abandoned almost entirely by the left.

Not sure why people keep bringing this up as if I am saying it is wrong to criticize Islam in any way. As long as it is done intelligently I have no problem with that. But to say all Muslims worship a moon god idol and want to kill all non-Muslims is unfair, inaccurate criticism.

 

[Lyndon]

In the world today, with tensions between Muslims and Westerners at historic highs, any misplaced criticism of Muslims, that they should not have the right to practice their religion in their countries as the wish, whether you intend to support world war against Muslims or not, your attitude lends supports to real nut cases and Evil men in our Western Governments that want to start an Armageddon as "prophesied" in their psychotic Book of Revelation. If you think that is not a very real possibility in the world today, you are ignorant and need to educate yourself. This is not about supporting Muslim religion, or advocating Islam, its about FREEDOM, the freedom of Muslims to practice their own religion in their own countries.

 

[LuisDantas]

What specifically do you think needs to be dealt with and in what manner?

For one thing, it would be nice to have some clarity on several core concepts of Islam and solve a few apparent contradictions.

Is there no compulsion on religion, or are we to be ashamed of not following the one religion given by God and not lost since?

Do Muslims hope to establish a caliphate and Sharia Law, or do they not? What would those concepts entail in practice?

There are critics of Islam that make a very specific claim and support it rather well: that Islam instructs its followers to accept people if they have never had a fair chance of learning about Islam, or if they convert into Islam, or if they pay a specific tax due to not being Muslims (it is unclear if they have to be People of the Book as well, and what happens if they are not).

In other situations, i.e. people who had the opportunity to become Muslims but turned it down and for whatever reason can't or won't accept to pay a tax due to simply not being Muslims, the claim is made that the Quran instructs Muslims to literally wage war.

I asked how much truth there is to it recently in another thread. I have yet to see an actual clarification. Instead, I have been told that I do not understand the meaning of Islam and suchlike.

There are very good reasons to fear what people with such totalitarian, expansionist ideologies and so little desire to earn acceptance and respect might be aiming to achieve. I would love to be convinced that I am exagerating, but in all fairness, I don't think anyone actually made the attempt. Instead, I have been insulted and given oddly ridiculous attempts at despisal.

 

[gsa]

In the world today, with tensions between Muslims and Westerners at historic highs, any misplaced criticism of Muslims, that they should not have the right to practice their religion in their countries as the wish, whether you intend to support world war against Muslims or not, your attitude lends supports to real nut cases and Evil men in our Western Governments that want to start an Armageddon as "prophesied" in their psychotic Book of Revelation. If you think that is not a very real possibility in the world today, you are ignorant and need to educate yourself. This is not about supporting Muslim religion, or advocating Islam, its about FREEDOM, the freedom of Muslims to practice their own religion in their own countries.

So let me get this straight: If I say that I object to the Islamic murder of gay men, adulterers, heretics, blasphemers and apostates that takes place in Muslim majority Islamic states, I am somehow giving aid and comfort to neoconservative extremists? And perhaps interfering with the "freedom" of Muslims to practice their religion in this way?

I don't think so.

 

[YmirGF]

What is there that is not to fear from a Supremacist Replacement Theology?

That said, it is because Islam is so poorly understood, even by all too many of its followers - apparently, that is has come to the forefront of people's minds, as something to be feared. Normally, education would suffice to straighten this problem out for the non-believer, but to make matters worse is that authentic Muslim texts and dissertations are often almost painful to read, demonstrating a circular reasoning that is unabashed and breathtaking. The mental gymnastics are often bizarre to follow.

We also see far too many Muslims behaving very badly throughout the world and that certainly is not helpful to the idea that Islam is a "religion of peace". One definition of peace in Islam says that peace is when there is no longer any opposition to Islam and Islam prevails throughout the land. Necessarily, that would include violence used to subdue those who are greatly opposed to Islam.

One other nasty aspect to Islamic thought is that once Muslims have taken over a given land area, that land area is now purified and remains the property of Muslims until Judgment Day.

Islam is very far from being about peace, love and beards.

 

[nazz]

For one thing, it would be nice to have some clarity on several core concepts of Islam and solve a few apparent contradictions.

Is there no compulsion on religion, or are we to be ashamed of not following the one religion given by God and not lost since?

Do Muslims hope to establish a caliphate and Sharia Law, or do they not? What would those concepts entail in practice?

There are critics of Islam that make a very specific claim and support it rather well: that Islam instructs its followers to accept people if they have never had a fair chance of learning about Islam, or if they convert into Islam, or if they pay a specific tax due to not being Muslims (it is unclear if they have to be People of the Book as well, and what happens if they are not).

In other situations, i.e. people who had the opportunity to become Muslims but turned it down and for whatever reason can't or won't accept to pay a tax due to simply not being Muslims, the claim is made that the Quran instructs Muslims to literally wage war.

I asked how much truth there is to it recently in another thread. I have yet to see an actual clarification. Instead, I have been told that I do not understand the meaning of Islam and suchlike.

There are very good reasons to fear what people with such totalitarian, expansionist ideologies and so little desire to earn acceptance and respect might be aiming to achieve. I would love to be convinced that I am exagerating, but in all fairness, I don't think anyone actually made the attempt. Instead, I have been insulted and given oddly ridiculous attempts at despisal.

The thing is there is not going to be just one answer to those questions. Moderates will have one idea, radicals another. Many might not even be educated well enough about their own religion to be able to answer. This is the situation with all religions really. But I am convinced that MOST Muslims do not espouse the more radical views.

 

[nazz]

So let me get this straight: If I say that I object to the Islamic murder of gay men, adulterers, heretics, blasphemers and apostates that takes place in Muslim majority Islamic states, I am somehow giving aid and comfort to neoconservative extremists? And perhaps interfering with the "freedom" of Muslims to practice their religion in this way?

I don't think so.

I don't think so either. Those are legitimate criticisms of things that are actually happening. Again, this is not what I was referring to as "Islamophobia".

 

[Augustus]

I don't think so either. Those are legitimate criticisms of things that are actually happening. Again, this is not what I was referring to as "Islamophobia".

Why do you have such a problem with using another phrase which is more accurate than 'Islamophobia' then?

You can still make every point you want to make, in fact you can make it more accurately. Why is there the need to specifically use the word 'Islamophobia'?

Now you are having to clarify what you mean by 'Islamophobia', using the phrase anti-Muslim bigotry, would help you to avoid having to repeatedly define what you mean by 'Islamophobia'.

If you constantly have to define what a word means, it probably has insufficient meaning to be useful in practical communication.

 

[icehorse]

I don't think so either. Those are legitimate criticisms of things that are actually happening. Again, this is not what I was referring to as "Islamophobia".

nazz - As near as I can tell what you're referring to would normally be called bigotry.
Bigotry comes in many flavors, and there are some people who are bigoted against Islam. What's interesting here is that - for my money - "Islamophobia" is a word made up by Islamists as an attempt to stifle any and all criticism of Islam. Notice what a nice job the word does of muddying up conversations.

 

[nazz]

Why do you have such a problem with using another phrase which is more accurate than 'Islamophobia' then?

You can still make every point you want to make, in fact you can make it more accurately. Why is there the need to specifically use the word 'Islamophobia'?

Now you are having to clarify what you mean by 'Islamophobia', using the phrase anti-Muslim bigotry, would help you to avoid having to repeatedly define what you mean by 'Islamophobia'.

If you constantly have to define what a word means, it probably has insufficient meaning to be useful in practical communication.

It's a perfectly good word. Why have a word like "homophobia"? We could just say "anti-gay bigotry".

 

[nazz]

nazz - As near as I can tell what you're referring to would normally be called bigotry.
Bigotry comes in many flavors, and there are some people who are bigoted against Islam. What's interesting here is that - for my money - "Islamophobia" is a word made up by Islamists as an attempt to stifle any and all criticism of Islam. Notice what a nice job the word does of muddying up conversations.

I could be wrong but I think Islamophobia was coined by non-Muslims.